Interestingly most of the comments here are of a political or ideological nature, one side vs the other. Nary a word about the insanity driving all this middle east madness. RELIGON and RELIGOUS intolerance, by BOTH sides. Funny how everyone is dancing around that 10,000 lb gorilla in the room.
Disagree it's really about dogma. This is something written 16 years ago in a different context (supposedly deficient Islamic theology vs. Christian theology), but I think it stands up The problem I have with topics like this is that "religious disputes" are almost never that. Few big disputes occur over dogmatic differences. Instead, faith is a term of identity and social status, and "faith based" divisions are no more than proxies for that. Heck, the closest thing to a true religiously based conflict right now may be the Sunni-Shia divide, in which the difference is who is the true successor to the Prophet. But even that is a proxy for historic Sunni subjugation of the Shia, though one could argue we live with the result of that succession war to this day. But the true "Clash of Civilizations" between Christendom and the Dar al-Islam isn't a function of the rejection of Trinitarian theology and the role of Mohammed as Prophet (the prime doctrinal differences). It is that the area of the world in which Islam predominates is weaker and dominated by the Christendom (the West) leading the classic feeling of humiliation and power rivalry than has driven human conflict for centuries. That is what drives Islamic fury, not Trinitarian theology. Now one could argue that the West eclipsed Islam based upon a doctrinal advance in the West, namely the Enlightenment and secular government and the nation state, which permitted a great leap ahead of Islam technologically and economically. And you hear echoes of that grievance in Osama, Falwell, Al-Zawahiri, Dobson, etc., i.e.. that our secularized society makes us worthy of disgust and death. But the bottom line is that the teachings of Islam is not the problem - Islam has shown itself just as adaptable to modern moral conceptions as the two other monotheistic faiths that arose from the region, both of whom also have sacred texts than can justify the worst of human behavior but whose adherents have adopted a hermeneutic of reading those texts with an updated moral understanding overlay that doesn't permit the worst of what our sacred texts would appear to allow. Parts of the Islamic world have easily made the same transition while maintaining the faith, just as Christians and Jews have overcome slavery and mass slaughter of opposing tribes, both practices condoned in the texts revealing God's relationship with ancient Israel. The problem is not doctrinal; it is the humiliation, real and perceived, of a less-advanced society
Thank you tampa, interesting and certainly part of the power dynamic. "It is that the area of the world in which Islam predominates is weaker and dominated by the Christendom (the West) leading the classic feeling of humiliation and power rivalry than has driven human conflict for centuries. That is what drives Islamic fury, not Trinitarian theology" "The problem is not doctrinal; it is the humiliation, real and perceived, of a less-advanced society[/QUOTE]" I do not dispute these points as having much to do with the current situation, but you will NEVER convince me that the RELIGON part of the equation is not also, a main driver. There are also "HOLES" in this argument. The argument you present may in fact be true NOW, but it certainly WAS NOT always the case in the long and bitter history between these two religous ideologies. In fact many scholars consider Islamic culture, of the late dark and early to middle middle ages, to be technologically, if not ideologically superior to the West. This is certainly true in mathmatics and numerous fields of scientific inquiry.
I searched all over twitter and could not find anything other than that video and that description with minor variations. I could not make out what was being hollered but it sounds like it was originally a demonstration intended to stop traffic and then they all gathered in front of what may be the hotel, although some went inside the parking garage. I could not find the more people talk about anything that happened afterwards as that was at least an hour ago
Assuming this is the same incident, the smoke was not from the demonstrators but was teargas. The protesters were not shouting "intifada" but "Hands off Rafah" and they were in front of Parliament but then tried to enter the Egyptian Embassy, which, if accurate, may explain why they were stymied because embassies typically have security and a gate as opposed to being able to walk right up https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/clashes-break-out-pro-palestinian-rally-greece-2024-05-07/
No way of verifying the accuracy of this photo but it does seem to show police present in an embassy, but it's during the day This reporter has 4 tweets - looks like the same incident https://twitter.com/dgatopoulos Of course, both may be true. The police may have broken up the attempt to enter the Egyptian embassy during the day and the protesters then went around and arrived at the hotel. In fact, looking at the images, and it's hard to tell, that may well be what occurred
Agreed - that was what I was trying to convey as follows: Now one could argue that the West eclipsed Islam based upon a doctrinal advance in the West, namely the Enlightenment and secular government and the nation state, which permitted a great leap ahead of Islam technologically and economically
I think it is true as I thought about it further. I tried to harmonize everything. It appears a daytime demonstration at Parliament/Egyptian Embassy, broken up by police, followed by a nighttime continuation that ended up at a hotel. But I can't figure out more right now. I would assume there's more out there but I have not been able to find it. Just saw that the first reports of trying to reach the hotel were well over one hour ago and there's nothing more.
At this point I am thinking the Athens incident is more disinformation. There was an unruly protest during the day at Parliament/Egyptian Embassy, broken up by riot police. There may have been some continuation in the streets later. No one has reported it yet other than some overhead footage despite local media coverage of the earlier protests. Some said it was rival FC Club hooliganism. Who knows? There are multiple Twitter accounts saying the protesters broke into a hotel looking for Jews, but zero follow up about what occurred. None of the accounts have much engagement and none say what happened after. One was Libs of TikTok, a strategic liar. It looks like what is mainly a bot disinformation attempt to stir up hatred. In the absence of any follow up story, I am calling this one some form of disinformation.
A beautiful interview with an Israeli Jesuit that seeks to humanize all the individuals and articulate an emphasis on peace. Well worth a listen. This week on “Inside the Vatican,” David Neuhaus, S.J., an Israeli priest who teaches Scripture in Israel and Palestine, joins hosts Colleen Dulle and Gerard O’Connell for a conversation on what he believes can bring peace in the Holy Land war. He reflects on how Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs can engage in dialogue without dismissing each other’s painful histories, and emphasizes the need for sensitive language when addressing each other’s traumatic histories. “Antisemitism is real. There’s a history to it; people feel threatened,” David says. “But there’s also a lot of manipulation. And not every expression of support for the Palestinian people can be then condemned as antisemitism,” he adds. “This is a very dangerous game.”
Well I posted it over a month ago and later in the thread I said it looked like nothing happened. But thanks?
Sorry. I should have checked. I thought it was new. Wait a second. It is dated June 12 and says it happened the night before. It may be wrong, but at least I don't feel stupid
