Richard Dawkins Laments The Decline Of Christianity In England, Calls Himself "Culturally Christian"

I would say the Ottoman Empire's tolerance of Christians and Jews within its borders was greater than most of Western Europe's for Jews and Muslims during its entire existence. It's usually people who talk like you that are the ones that are myopic or arent informed of the history they say others need to learn.

 

If you believe this then you are conceding that Islam has more attraction over the long run than "British" or "European" culture and whatever it offers. It shows me that you think little of British culture as something people like and it really underscores the racism at work, because essentially what the people who argue this are worried about is the country being less white. The "culture" is a good stand in for not appearing like a raving bigot. My bet is that in 40 years most immigrants to Britain will be more into football and cricket and going for a curry than praying in a mosque fervently and trying to make everyone wear a hijab.

 

Muslims, historically (and generally) speaking and in particular the Ottomans, were amongst the most tolerant hosts. As long as the Christians and Jews paid their taxes, obeyed the laws, and did not try and convert Muslims, they were protected.

Conversely, Christianity during the relatively same period (during the Inquisition) had intolerance for the “heresy” of Muslim or Judaism.

But times and mindsets change …

 

Turkey is majority Muslim and until very recently was as Cosmopolitan and tolerant as any place on earth. I think the issue is not with the faith itself, bur rather rests with the leadership and the manner in which faith is exploited.

 

Lets not forget the state of Israel exists largely because late 19th century Zionists were like, we need to get out of Europe!

 

The 20th century ME was tied up with anti-colonial struggles and various forms of Arabic nationalism, its really impossible to separate Islam as sort of a rallying point against Western powers who had dominated the region and drew up national boundaries that continue to be a source of conflict. As you said, its always a matter of context. Religion has always been a great way to rally people against people, especially those that might believe different.

 

Well, one argument that I’ve seen is that the Messiah would bring peace in earth. Jesus did not bring peace. We have had nonstop war both before and since Jesus’ time.

Simply stated, Jews don’t believe Jesus was/is G-d, just as Jews don’t believe Mohammed with the Prophet.

But at the expense of repetition, I absolutely and unconditionally respect your faith and ideas, just as I respect a Muslim’s.

Because, in addition to the principles of human dignity and so many other things, the three religions all worship the G-d of Abraham.

 

And they proved to be prescient.

 

The WWI defeat of the Ottomans left the Islamic world without a leader and without a home. When Britain colonialized the Mandate, they created the world of envy and despair and hate that exists today.

 

Its also crucial to note that during the cold war the Western powers typically supported Islamic and nationalist parties and groups over those that promoted secular values (because those were typically communist and socialist aligned). The Middle East was quite secular, but we helped all the Islamists murder/disempower the communists, socialists and people that wanted a more secular society.

 

The Cold War was ruthlessly waged in every corner of the globe.

 

Indeed, its just important to point out that all our conception of those "crazy Muslims" mostly came about because that's who we wanted running the region, because those secular internationalist types were soft on communism. And lo and behold, all the blowback has people immigrating to Europe to get away from the chaos we helped sow.

 

Turkey killed off > 2 million Christians in 30 years.

 

Israel exists be cause the evil colonialists helped them claw their historical lands back from the grubby paws of *the religion of peace*.

 

After WWII?

 

The Ottoman Christian genocide says "WHY HELLO THERE!"

 

What???

Muslims are moving out of Muslim lands in droves, = proof that Muslim lands are more attractive???

 

Fair point.

Just pointing out how they have already negotiated that turn, not saying they're right.