Trump's Troubles

Your position of victimless crime is what is farcical. To claim that the loans were repaid is inconsequential to the crime.

 

Then you should have enough knowledge to know Trump is in the wrong but you clearly don't.

 

I think the point is that bad reasoning should be countered by good reasoning, not name calling. Maybe surfn is a Trump fanboy, however we define that, but we are all likely fanboys for something or another. Does this mean that all of our arguments deserve ridicule rather than rebuttal? Simply explaining the flaws in his argument should suffice.

 

Value is subjective. But there are limits. If I claim that my property is worth $750k and the bank says it is worth $700k, that likely isn't fraud but rather differences in valuation method. If I claim it is worth $7 million, that likely is fraud, as there isn't data to back such an increase.

Let's get specific. If a property is not able to be used as a residential property but the organization requests that the valuation of the property not reflect that fact to a bank, is that lying to the bank? If a property owner includes unbuilt properties in a value as if they are already built in a bank filing, is that fraud? If a person triples the square footage of a property in an application for a loan, is that okay to you?

 

No. Posters have histories here. The one in question rushes here every time he hears something new on right wing media which he takes as gospel to defend Trump as he did with stupid 2020 election conspiracy theories.

Each and every post from someone doesn't have to be treated as if it were his or her first and examined just on its merits alone.

 

I’m a fanboi of beautiful women. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. Embrace being a fanboi if that’s what you are is my reasonable opinion. When someone repeatedly spews nonsense (Mar a Go Go valuation, sale of Uranium to Russia) ) as example, gets corrected repeatedly and still spews the nonsense that is worthy of ridicule.

 

Maybe his worshippers can block the entrances with lifted pickup trucks and chain themselves to the gates of the seized properties.

 

I can definitely sympathize with this. As a parent, I am regrettably experienced with how history can reduce our tolerance for particular behaviors. Of course, this is no evidence that intolerance is the moral ideal. Again, who among us truly surprises with our opinions at this point? Given only topic and poster as inputs, the board could probably roughly predict the content of 95% of the posts on here, including the one I am now crafting. We humans are simple creatures, but even simple creatures deserve decency.

 

With respect; no, we're so far beyond the point where tolerance of and embracing criminal un-American behavior is treated as legitimate.

In fact, we probably never should have been at that point in the first place. If we hadn't, we very well may have never reached the political and moral nadir we've reached as a country.

And particularly wrt this argument, as it's been made dozens, hundreds of times; shilling and excuse-making for a criminal and crime is ridiculous and un-American. It should be treated as such.

Children deserve a large modicum of decency in all situations.

Adults, particularly those ho have voluntarily engaged in adult discourse do NOT deserve decency when they are spreading lies, or advocating for crime and criminality or general un-American behavior. Particularly if reason has been explained to them dozens of times.

Such adults need to be shown and taught reality, even if it's about 8 years too late.

 

If I rob a bank, use that money to make substantial profit, and in the end return all the monies back to the bank, should I be charged with a crime? After all, the bank got its money back and there were no victims? Right? Those defending Trump are defending this exact activity.

Trump defrauded banks with activity that Judge Engoron said leapt off the page. Just because Trump ultimately paid back what he defrauded doesn't mean what he did is ever acceptable. Let Trump get away with it and others will attempt to do the same. And chances are, most will not be able to repay the banks in full, like the other examples of people who tried similar schemes.

And there were victims. Remember, Weisselberg testified that Trump kept two sets of books. One for banks, and one for the government, as a way to lower his taxes. There were also potential competitors that might have wanted the same property, but their financials may not have looked as favorable as compared to Trump's fraudulent numbers, and they may have lost out on profits that Trump did recognize. Again, allow Trump to get away with fraud, why shouldn't others attempt the same?

 

Can you point to the bank that said they were a victim of Trump?

Can you point to anyone who actually lost money from Trump because of his statement on what he thinks the value of his properties are?

First of all, how do we know it was 4x the amount? It sure as hell is not accurate to use the assessment by the property appraiser. If you think that is market value, go check on your own home, you'll be very disappointed. Let me know what county you live in and ill provide the direct link to run the search on your property appraiser website.

We know what the judge did and didn't use because its all public record. How is that not knowing what was or was not done? lol my goodness...

Oh also, judges have never been wrong, ever. Guess we dont need appeals or SCOTUS.

 

Robbing a bank is a crime even if you "give it back".

A bank who did their own due diligence on Trumps properties and then signed a loan with terms agreed upon by both parties is now being compared to robbing a bank.
unbelievable.

 

Fraud is fraud, is it not? And if the banks saw the fraudulent books produced by Weisselberg, and decided to loan Trump money based on the fraudulent numbers, is Trump and his business not guilty of fraud even if they repaid the loan?

 

Show me this "mounds" of proof. If he had said mounds of evidence to the value of Mar A Lago, there is no logical explanation for using the property appraiser's assessment value.
Properties much smaller have recently sold for more than the assessed value from the property appraiser.
That is even more of an injustice to Trump if this is the case.

 

So everyone that calls me to do a cash-out refinance and tells me that their property is worth $X amount but after we do an appraisal it comes in lower, do I need to report them for fraud?

 

Did those properties have deed restrictions like Mar A Lago? The Palm Beach County Assessor appraised MAR at between $18 and $28 million because of the legal restrictions. Trump said the property was worth 100X that!

And if someone is trying to inflate their property by 100X, then yes, you should report them.

But Trump wasn't asking for a 2nd mortgage where the bank and the owner agree to have a licensed appraiser come in and look at a single property. Trump was asking for business loans, using his properties as collateral for the loans. And again, Weisselberg had two sets of books; one for the banks and one for the government tax collector. Is that not the definition of financial fraud? Yes or no?

If a company's CFO, backed by a respected Accounting firm like Mazars says a company is worth X because of Y assets and Z debts, then how much more research should a bank do? But again, this was fraud; fraud so bad that Weisselberg is now serving time in prison. And the Trump Corp was found to have made over $350 million in ill-gotten gains. Why should any business be able to profit from fraud like this?

 

If it were a one time thing where they thought their house was worth 400k but it was really only worth 300k, no, you shouldn't report them for fraud. But if they systematically lied on financial documents over a period of years, overstating values by hundreds of millions, then yeah, you should probably report them for fraud.

 

Legal restrictions alone would not dwindle the value of that much land to only 18-28 million, let alone the value of the structures.

I dont know anything about the books or Weisselberg and as i mentioned earlier this morning, if Trump was caught providing false documents to show different levels of income or liquid assets, then yes that is definitely fraud. I will read up on Weisselberg more today. Thanks for pointing that out.

Proving what a company is worth is far more difficult than what value any given property is worth.

Back to reporting someone who tells me what their property is worth. There is nowhere to report something like that since someone is allowed to have an opinion on the value of their own property. That is why we do appraisals. You cannot have an opinion on how much your income is since that is reported yearly to IRS. You cannot have an opinion on your liquid assets since you have asset statements to show the current worth.