So as long as people conform, they are allowed to participate in society? And those that don't need therapy until they do? What's the answer to those with anomalies?
You said that we need to treat gender dysphoria as a medical/psychological issue. I think that's the current view of medical professionals. Transitioning can be a recommended course of action, and if someone is transitioning, wouldn't we want to support them? Putting aside situations where there are competing rights (such as with competitive sports), I don't think it's compassionate or helpful to purposefully call someone the name or gender they don't use in order to make some sort of point or tell them their condition is stupid. Anyone dealing with gender dysphoria is obviously well-aware of the incongruency between their identity and their sex organs and don't need constant reminders. I'm all for debating the best way to address this medically/psychologically. Of course, it's also true that a significant percentage of people just have a religious or moral opposition to transitioning. Many even have an objection to any manner of dress or behavior which isn't consistent with their view of appropriate gender norms. I think those present different issues since those aren't medical viewpoints but moral ones.
I would tend to think practically all of us want to help and be supportive of those that have a medical condition and transitioning. I find it hard to accept though that because this morning you decided you are her instead of him, that I need to really care about that other than that is a psychological condition, and you may treatment. Just like if you decide you are gay, I could care less, and don't plan on treating you any different than any heterosexual. I don't mean for this sound like a harsh non caring stance.
I worry that with more folks like yourself, we as a society are encouraging those who are confused to change gender. We need to understand them and treat their disorder in many cases.
Sure--but my post was in response to AZ asking me (rhetorically): So what do we do with the deviation? Just ignore it? Pretend it doesn't exist and it will hopefully just magically go away one day? Treat it as mental illness even though many trans people can function perfectly within society? Help them cope with their deviation/condition; not make believe there is no deviation/condition, that ppl can choose whatever bloody hell made up concoction pretend gender they make up, and society ought to coddle them, create extra bathrooms for them--because the ones designed to accept piss and shit from peckers and vajajay's and ass, are somehow inadequate, to fruitcakes depositing human waste via...peckers, vajajay's and ass... We have to create additional boxes to check off to accommodate fruity imaginings... we need to let >6'4" muscle bound men compete against natural actual women folk, to accommodate fruitcakes' fillins.... ...yada yada yada. It's bullshit. Give'em a $%@#$% pill, send 'em on their merry @#$%#$% way, let them deal with life like the rest of us, and on the same damn terms. C'est la vie.
I don't view it as a moral issue either, but I know some do. With respect to the numbers, I'm not sure how many people are really changing genders on a whim or on a day-to-day basis, but I do suspect some younger people who are polled might identify as non binary either as a show of solidarity with trans people or as a way to cast their vote against expectations of conventional gender norms.
You are probably right. but that is where parents need to help. It was said up thread, sex is male, female or transitioning, Gender, male, female or (my words) confused. Society changing to accept the few confused is ridiculous. Accepting yes but changing societal norms, not so much!
It's not like a person can wake up one day, decide they are some other gender, and change things immediately. Especially if/when that person is a child. And I think we all agree that someone with gender dysmorphia needs to seek out mental health care. The difference is what kind of care the person should receive. And I'll go with the majority of medical experts and current study results which show affirmative care leads to the best results much more often than not. This means that yes, we, as society, should accept someone who is transitioning and/or in the process. It really doesn't hurt us to do so, and it's a positive benefit for them. Sure, there are those who may change their mind, but we need to treat them in the way that begets their best outcome. And not use them as proof the other 97% are wrong.
On one hand, you say that it's a medical/psychological issue and should be treated as such. On the other hand, you seem kinda angry about it, which is a strange reaction to people suffering from a medical condition. I would note that someone recognizing and acknowledging that their gender identity is incongruent with their biological sex isn't playing make believe. If gender dysphoria is real, then addressing it is not pretend; it's precisely the opposite. That's true whether a given person ultimately transitions or not. Personally, I hope that as our views about conventional gender expectations change and become less rigid, that trans people will feel accepted as they are and not feel compelled to transition in the first place.
The treatment of transgendered persons shouldn't be a political issue in the first place. The only reason that it has become an issue is because conservative politicians have discovered another wedge issue to trigger religious conservatives by exploiting individuals with a condition that they find bizarre and do not understand. Contrary to what some posters have stated children and teens are not being encouraged to change their gender. Politicians and the right-wing media have been exploiting the issue by citing outliers who received improper treatment and/or have been inadequately screened and misrepresenting those cases as relatively common when in fact the overwhelming majority of transgender individuals who have received competent medical care are very satisfied with the care that they received and much less likely to experience mental health problems than similar persons who were denied care. Gender-affirming Care Saves Lives New Study Confirms Extremely Low Regret Rates for Gender-Affirming Surgery Although it may be surprising to some of our friends on the right, the treatment of transgender persons including surgery isn't anything new or recent. The person below was on the cover of Playboy in 1978 and was the subject of photos in the magazine (hint: she didn't have a twig and berries). By the way a study was done of children in the Netherlands who were referred for treatment for possible gender dysphoria, a majority in fact did not receive medical intervention and those that did tended to be satisfied with the results. Children and adolescents in the Amsterdam Cohort of Gender Dysphoria: trends in diagnostic- and treatment trajectories during the first 20 years of the Dutch Protocol - PubMed
"You're not gay. You just think you are. Why should we cater to your beliefs? How do we know that your feeling isn't wrong?"
I still don't know how I feel about schools catering to trans kids, but I do know that the pushback against it is definitely worse than what the schools are doing to help those kids feel safe. Utah school board member Natalie Cline questions high school athlete’s gender, causing social media uproar A Utah high school student needs police protection after a state school board member publicly singled out and suggested the student was transgender — without evidence — inciting threats from her followers on social media. Natalie Cline later apologized — but not before many commenters personally attacked the player, the student’s school district had to provide extra security for her, and the lawmaker who wrote the state’s anti-transgender athlete bill weighed in sharing private information possibly in violation of her own measure. The latest post from Cline, who has repeatedly come under fire for her controversial posts, came late Tuesday, setting off 16 hours of hateful speculation that continued even after she deleted it Wednesday afternoon. It also prompted a strong statement from Utah Gov. Spencer Cox and Lt. Gov. Deidre Henderson condemning Cline’s “unconscionable behavior” and calling for the school board to take action against her. Cline’s original post included a flyer for a high school girls’ basketball team in Salt Lake County. On her public Facebook page, the ultra-conservative and outspoken member of the Utah State Board of Education wrote “Girls’ basketball” — implying that one of the players was not female, suggesting she shouldn’t be able to play. The girl is a minor. To protect the identity of the athlete, The Salt Lake Tribune is not naming the school.
This isn't the first time you've brought up sexuality when discussing the new age concept of gender. Care to connect the dots? Go GATORS! ,WESGATORS
It's simple. When somebody tells you they're gay, you have to take their word for it. There isn't some physical manifestation of homosexuality. It's innate. It's a "feeling." Many people used to believe it was a "phase." Many people used to believe it was a "lifestyle choice." Many people used to believe you could convert gay people and make them straight. Few people believe those things anymore. You ask how we know transgender people aren't wrong about what's innate to them. You ask how we're supposed to trust what they're "feeling." If you're comfortable trusting gay people when they tell you they're gay, why aren't you comfortable trusting transgender people? Why are their innate "feelings" less real to you? Are you more willing to trust gay people because you have the innate "feelings" that tell you that you're straight? Have you considered that you take for granted that your innate "feelings" also tell you that you're cisgender?
Caroline Cossey, perhaps better known by her professional name Tula, was born in a small village in England in 1954, identified as a male child and given the name Barry Kenneth Cossey. Unknown at the time, young Barry was "born with Klinefelter's Syndrome, which causes boys born with it to have an extra X chromosome. Women are typically born with XX chromosomes, while most men are born with XY chromosomes. Those with Klinefelters instead have XXY chromosomes. Cossey's variation of Klinefelters is even more rare, as she actually has two extra X chromosomes, making her genetic makeup XXXY." https://www.respectrebelrevolt.com/...Cossey was born on,have an extra X chromosome. "Since Cossey has Klinefelters, it meant that growing up, she tended to look slightly more feminine. She also picked up traits and habits that are more stereotypically feminine, at least by the standards of the late 1950s. While Cossey's brother and his friends were out playing games, she would instead be found with her sister playing with dolls or dressing in their mother's clothing. At school, Cossey got along better with the girls, which led to frequent bullying from the boys. "Once Cossey hit puberty, her looks became even more feminine, while the bullying only got worse. Cossey had always known she was different than the other students, but she had not always been able to figure out why. After a health class in high school, she realized she was not attracted to any of the girls she went to school with but was instead attracted to the boys." Cossey at age 15 "At 15, the bullying became too intense for Cossey, so she left school. At first, Cossey worked in a clothing shop, then a butcher shop before she eventually left for London at the age of 16. Cossey would call leaving for London "running away". Not that she was running away from the bullies that tormented her, but rather she felt like she was running away from the feelings she was experiencing. "After arriving in London, Cossey found herself becoming a part of London's LGBTQ+ community. She became more comfortable with the idea that she was attracted to men, but she struggled to find exactly where she belonged in the community. Cossey would have a few relationships with men, but they did not bring her the fulfillment she thought that they would." After speaking with a neighbor who had recently completed a surgical transition from male to female Cossey realized the reason she had not found fulfillment was because she was not interested in being with a man who loved her as a gay man, she wanted to be loved as a straight woman. After starting hormone therapy at age 17 and surgical reassignment surgery at age 20, she was reborn as Caroline Cossey. I met Caroline Cossey in the mid 1990's when we were living in Atlanta where she and her husband also lived. At 6 feet tall, she was a strikingly beautiful woman even in her 40's, though she looked 10 years younger than her actual age. At the time she was attempting to revitalize her modeling career but don't know if she was successful as I have had no contact with her after moving back to Gainesville in 2000.
The concept of homosexuality is tangible (as is heterosexuality); and while we can point out biological exceptions that might murky the water, these things are still objectively identifiable. The level of subjectivity is significantly low to the point of essentially being non-existent in this realm. We don't even have to take someone's word, we just need to observe their behavior if they choose to show it. Hearing someone say "I'm gay" isn't the same thing as hearing a man make a reference to his "boyfriend" or other male significant other. I suppose it's fair to distinguish between one's feeling (subjective and non-observable) and one's expressive behavior (observable and more obviously classifiable). We can never truly know or understand exactly what one is feeling, but we can more accurately assess one's expressive behavior. I don't think innate, conditioned behavior, or some blending of the two are particularly relevant. Suppose it were, though, how could something that is supposedly innate (gender identity) refer to something that is considered to be a social construct (the new age version of gender). In terms of making somebody straight, or even gay for that matter, if one's sexuality is determined at all by genetics, it stands to reason there may potentially be a way to manipulate that. Likewise, if one's sexuality is determined at all by conditioning, it stands to reason there may potentially be a way to manipulate that as well. Lack of understanding does not equate to a scientific road block (and I'm not speaking to the "should we" aspect of things, only whether or not it could ever be possible to steer such variables). People already steer their genes in a particular way when you consider preferred physical appearances and health related matters. The ability to do so more explicitly could potentially be merely a matter of discovery and affordability (and hopefully ethics, but that's scarcely been a road block to man's advancement over the years). This isn't as much about trust as it is about identification (yes, trust is relevant, but if we can't get the identification part down, what exactly are we trusting?). Presumably we can agree that the concept of homosexuality/heterosexuality is pretty straight-forward, not much to figure out in terms of the identification portion. But what is it about this feeling (gender identity), what does it refer to? If one's feeling is subjective and not objectively identifiable, then doesn't it stand to reason that two people can have different feelings about the same term and how it gets applied? Lack of identification is the biggest obstacle here. Converting the "feelings" to an idea is challenging, particularly when terms are used that are not mutually agreeable. No, it's because sexuality is more tangible/practical than the new age concept of gender. I don't presume that my "feelings" about being a man are identical in any way shape or form to any other person that would otherwise be perceived to be a man. My feelings are not what makes me a man. There are many men that feel completely different than me on a variety of issues, and I'm certain I could (in theory) find a sum of men that in totality would have non-uniform views on any aspect that one may come up on what qualifies me as a "man." Not saying that they would consider me a "woman" but there would not be a consensus on whether any given attribute is a factor in determining one's gender. I don't think I take anything for granted; I'm unsure what is meant, exactly, for a person to indicate that they don't feel their gender matches their sex (outside of certain unique biological markers, of course, like in Lacuna's post above). Go GATORS! ,WESGATORS
Not the first time and in this case the victim was a 9-year old girl. Although the full story is behind a paywall the title says it all. Adults interrupt track meet to accuse 9-year-old girl of being transgender, parents say
The condition you're speaking of (XXXY specifically) occurs in 1 out of every 50,000 births. Or expressed as a percentage 0.002% of births. One five-hundredth of one percent chance. 1 out of every 50,000 high school students. Even in these cases, I think gender therapy/hormonal treatment should be banned until age 18. A minor cannot consent to this anymore than they can to sexual intercourse with an adult.
Tangible in what way? You talk about observing behavior. But the same exact thing is true for transgender folks. They're usually living as their identified gender. That means you are also able to observe it. Yet, you question it. Why don't you question if people who present as being gay are actually gay? I'm not understanding your point here. At some granular level, sure. But that's really not the issue here. You look into the mirror, you see a man, and you don't think, "No, that's not right. I am a woman. I should have breasts and a vagina. This isn't supposed to be my body." Watch some videos where transgender people explain it. Talk to transgender people. I found it easy to understand after doing that.
