Ancient mystery religions and the possible psychedelic roots of Christianity

You are close but off by a bit. If science can’t find a way to measure it. I am skeptical. I can’t see atoms but I think they exist. I have seen experiments that show they exist. Weird stuff like string theory and quarks I think is a better example. I honestly understand little but trust the scientific method is correct.

 

My apology to you for the delay in replying. I've been occupied with other more pressing matters today.

Hardly. In today's world filled with selfish, greedy people relatively few claiming salvation through professions of belief in orthodox Christian doctrines would have the faith or even the courage necessary to live their lives as unselfishly as Jesus taught. They are more concerned with escaping the eternal fiery punishment they are told they will suffer when they die if they don't believe Jesus died to save them. Hell being yet another fallacy. Emphasizing or preaching on Jesus teachings on dying to self and unselfish giving to those in need is less common in evangelism.

Ah yes, original sin. A doctrine cobbled together by Augustine and established as Catholic doctrine in the 4th century as support for the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. Inaccurately translated as 'a virgin' the prophecy pronounces an almah would conceive and bear a child to be called Emmanuel. You and I went through this some years back when it was pointed out to you the prophecy did not apply to the birth of Jesus, but was given specifically to Ahaz. To be correctly understood it must be read and comprehended in the historical context it was prophesied and written.

And in case you have forgotten it was also pointed out to you the word Isaiah used in 7:14 was almah, meaning a young woman of marriagable age. If the intent in this verse had been to announce a virgin was going to conceive a child, the prophecy would have been specific and used the word bethulah, which clearly means 'virgin.' There was no confusion in terms. Both words were used throughout the book. One time for almah and 5 times for bethulah. You can find them easily enough using these links:

Almah - H5959 - ʿalmâ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)
Bethulah - H1330 - bᵊṯûlâ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

Here is 7:14 in full historical context, from The New American Bible, translation changed from 'virgin' to 'young woman' as authorized by Catholic Bishops.

Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 7, Isaiah 14 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)

Isaiah 7:10 Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz: 11 Ask for a sign from the Lord, your God; let it be deep as Sheol, or high as the sky! 12 But Ahaz answered, “I will not ask! I will not tempt the Lord!” 13 Then he said: Listen, house of David! Is it not enough that you weary human beings? Must you also weary my God? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign; the young woman, pregnant and about to bear a son, shall name him Emmanuel. 15 Curds and honey he will eat so that he may learn to reject evil and choose good; 16 for before the child learns to reject evil and choose good, the land of those two kings whom you dread shall be deserted.

This prophesied child had to learn to reject evil and choose good. Does that speak of a Christ child born without the taint of "original sin"?

Thom Stark: books, biography, latest update

Theologian Thom Stark penned this on the name Emmanuel, "Ancient names frequently included reference to some god or divine activity. Joshua’s name means “Yahweh saves,” and Azariah means “Yahweh helps,” but neither Joshua nor Azariah were therefore understood to be Yahweh in the flesh. The significance of naming the child “God with us” is that the child was a sign to king Ahaz that Yahweh was going to protect the kingdom of Judah from the hostile alliance presently threatening it. The child was born, and not too long thereafter, Assyria had indeed defeated the kingdom of Israel in battle. That is the “single, fixed meaning” of Isaiah’s prophecy”

And as a solution for the centuries long debate on how a sinless child could be born of a mother tainted with 'original sin' in 1854 Pope Pius IX declared Mary's own conception "Immaculate" as only a mother free from 'original sin' could birth a child free from 'original sin'.

Another passage cited as support for the 'original sin' doctrine is Psalm 51:5, found in David's repentant lament for his sin with Bathsheba. This one was given as evidence for 'original sin' by plank when we debated the doctrine some years back.
"5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

I think it likely David was referring to his mother's first marriage to an Ammonite king - a prohibited marriage. David's 2 half sisters were born from the prohibited marriage and his half brothers were born from his father's first marriage. In Jewish law his mother was considered defiled by her previous relationship.

Paul wrote of sin in Romans 5:12 - 20. Paul's dissertation attributes the origins of sin and death to Adam, but to my recollection in the Genesis account of the fall Adam is not held accountable for any semblance of "original sin". It was not one of the curses placed upon him or Eve. Nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is found any notice humanity is under God’s condemnation simply by being born. Judaism is not the source nor does it endorse the doctrine, teaching only 'mankind is inclined to evil.' Even the scripture declaring the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons - is generally interpreted to be consequences of or from the commited sins, and limited to the 3rd or 4th generation.

Before the flood, Genesis 6:5 states, “The LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.”

 

Why do you disagree? Please, don't be sad for me. I am content; satisfied and expectant of better to come.

 

In the past I have struggled, but no more.

Was not my point or reason for mentioning the book in passing. It was a stage, a subject of inquiry, one of the paths or byways along the way.

There are similarities in some of the Buddhist precepts and what Jesus taught in different circumstances using different words. Did you know the Dalai Lama urged those interested in the practice of Buddhism to return to the faith or religious tradition of their birth?

 

Can you clarify how you define this 'faith'? When I speak of faith it is something more than belief. It is trust, and trust is found in the absence of doubt. You likely know the story of Charles Blondin, the French tight rope walker who crossed the Niagara River countless times performing amazing stunts on the wire. People saw him, they knew what he could do, they believed he was capable of doing these things, but when asked to volunteer to participate in his death defying stunts along with him, they declined. They believed, but were still filled with doubt, or perhaps fear. None had insufficient trust to place their life in his wheelbarrow or be carried across the river on his back.

 

Yes, we've been through this before, and yes, you've been, as always, quite generous with your *opinion *.

Again, almah comes from the Hebrew OT which was RE-consntituted from the Sepuagint, AFTER the sack of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD, during which the original Hebrew scrolls were destroyed. The Septuagint uses the Greek word for virgin. Additionally, almah doesn't exclude virgin ever, and essentially implies it. Like 'young maiden'. The Church ALWAYS held to this.

In terms of Pope Pius IX Dogma declaration re BVM's immaculate conception in 1854, the belief was long held, and is reflected in the churches of the east as well as the West (Rome) independent of each other, and the Pope. He marely declarec it dogma--because it was long held existing Tradition, not to make it so. What's more--an anecdote I've shared with you before-at the council of Ephesus, (in modern day Turkey), in 430ish AD, Our Lady was declared to be theotokos--Mother of God, reflecting a long held (centuries old) belief. The area burst put in celebration, bc it was held so steadfastly locally. This is also where St John the evangelist--author of the Gospel according to John (and Revelation)-- the disciple to whom Jesus entrusted his mother at the foot of the cross--went to spread the Faith. He founded that Church at Ephesus. He took Mary with him (per Christ's bilateral bequest) and cared for her until her ascension. No known burial site, no remains...for a church that has always valued relics (bc there aren't any/ascension). The mother of Jesus Christ mind you, who was always with Him, and there with St John as this cult of Christ took hold and spread like wildfire...

Also, there are the passages I've referred you to b4 regarding the Arc of the Covenant. It stands to reason-and is in fact, divinely conditent--that THE LOGOS as St John described Jesus--THE WORD OF GOD--the WORD made flesh--would hold at least the dignity of the Arc, which held the 'word of God' on the tablets.

In terms of original sin--St Augustine did not invent it. He really didn't invent anything; the beauty and power of St Augustine was in synthesizing 400 years of the faith succinctly, and his descriptions of the church as he found it 1600 years ago, are remarkably similar to the Church we have today, and in turn, reflective of the church described in the NT and contemporaneous writings of the early Church Fathers before him.

St Paul, Ireaneus, Tertillien, Origen, St. Cyril of J'salem, among others, confirm the notion of Original Sin. For all your talk of "allegory," in the Bible, you deny one of the clearest, central to the Christian narrative.

Whst need had Man of a redeemer, if Man was not fallen???

What pray tell, is the point of the serpent and the forbidden fruit, and getting kicked out of Eden, BUT to develop the Fall of Man, and the need for a redeemer???

You reduce Jesus to a cheap immitation of the Buddsh, when He is the greatest gift God gave Man.

 

I know this was addressed to Tilly, but permit me to address the underlying substance.

St. Theresa (Mother Theresa of Calcutta) famously had severe doubts-- as have many of the great Saints. St John of the cross wrote The Dark Night of the Soul, that famously confessed such. Even Jesus Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane expressed a crisis if faith. As did Job. St Peter famously denied Christ 3x...

Faith like courage isn't the absence of doubt/fear respectively--it entails perseverance and determination to overcome same. And we reckon faith is strengthened by trials, not weakened ( as courage increases with confronting fear, not by never having any).

Jmho/fwiw

 

thread way too light on psychedelics. 1st person I dropped acid with posts here.

 

"Saint" Theresa? Wicked "saint" of ulterior motives. rilly, dude? but, but, but the snowglobe sez

 

fyi. tip of the scumbag iceberg. Oh, to this day, she has never replied. May she burn in hell.

Dear Mother Teresa:

I am a Deputy District Attorney in Los Angeles County and one of the persons who worked on the prosecution of your benefactor, Charles H. Keating, Jr. I read your letter to Judge Ito, written on behalf of Mr. Keating, which includes your admission that you know nothing about Mr. Keating's business or the criminal charges presented to Judge Ito. I am writing to you to provide a brief explanation of the crimes of which Mr. Keating has been convicted, to give you an understanding of the source of the money that Mr. Keating gave to you, and to suggest that you perform the moral and ethical act of returning the money to its rightful owners.

Mr. Keating was convicted of defrauding 17 individuals of more than $900,000. These 17 persons were representative of 17,000 individuals from whom Mr. Keating stole $252,000,000. Mr. Keating's specific acts of fraud were that he was the source of a series of fraudulent representations made to persons who bought bonds from his company and he also was the repository of crucial information which he chose to withhold from bond purchasers, thereby luring his victims into believing they were making a safe, low-risk investment. In truth and in fact, their money was being used to fund Mr. Keating's exorbitant and extravagant lifestyle.

The victims of Mr. Keating's fraud come from a wide spectrum of society. Some were wealthy and well-educated. Most were people of modest means and unfamiliar with high finance. One was, indeed, a poor carpenter who did not speak English and had his life savings stolen by Mr. Keating's fraud.

The biblical slogan of your organization is 'As long as you did it to one of these My least brethren. You did it to Me'. The 'least' of the brethren are among those whom Mr. Keating fleeced without flinching. As you well know, divine forgiveness is available to all, but forgiveness must be preceded by admission of sin. Not only has Mr. Keating failed to admit his sins and his crimes, he persists in self-righteously blaming others for his own misdeeds. Your experience is, admirably, with the poor. My experience has been with the 'con' man and the perpetrator of the fraud. It is not uncommon for 'con' men to be generous with family, friends and charities.

Perhaps they believe that their generosity will purchase love, respect or forgiveness. However, the time when the purchase of 'indulgences' was an acceptable method of seeking forgiveness died with the Reformation. No church, no charity, no organization should allow itself to be used as a salve for the conscience of the criminal. We all are grateful that forgiveness is available but we all, also, must perform our duty. That includes the Judge and the Jury. I remind myself of the biblical admonition of the Prophet Micah: 'O man, what is good and what does the Lord require of you. To do justice, love mercy and walk humbly.'

We are urged to love mercy but we must do justice.

You urge Judge Ito to look into his heart -- as he sentences Charles Keating -- and do what Jesus would do. I submit the same challenge to you. Ask yourself what Jesus would do if he were given the fruits of a crime; what Jesus would do if he were in possession of money that had been stolen; what Jesus would do if he were being exploited by a thief to ease his conscience?

I submit that Jesus would promptly and unhesitatingly return the stolen property to its rightful owners. You should do the same. You have been given money by Mr. Keating that he has been convicted of stealing by fraud. Do not permit him the 'indulgence' he desires Do not keep the money. Return it to those who worked for it and earned it!

If you contact me I will put you in direct contact with the rightful owners of the property now in your possession.

Sincerely,

Paul W. Turley

 

Sheesh....

Seems inordinately harsh. She had to deal with the detestable but necessary task of fundraising in order to cater to the destitute. She lived with them, like them, and for them. She strived in earnest to live a life of love, charity, and giving, to live as Christ called all of us to do....

...but one of her benefactors was crooked, do let her cook in hell.

Ok. Well, you want to play the Christian game, let's see how you measure up ("Judge not, lest ye be judged")--let's hear your great contributions to humanity, subtract from it the ill acts of those with whom you were or are loosely affiliated, and lets see how you measure up.

Go:

 

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. (I know you know the reference.)

Faith is believing/hoping in something that your eyes cant see. It may come from evidences that you xan see, but the primary target of the faith is often unseen.

I have faith that wind exists. I cant actually see the wind. But I can see its impact. I can see the gentle movement of the leaves in a tree or the powerful violence of a hurricane. Yet I have never one time actually seen wind.

I have faith that wind exists.

In my life I have seen God be the gentle breeze.

 

I think you should explore your “saint” further if you want your admiration to be based on truth. It seems you didn’t even know about this.

I don’t measure up, I don’t claim to measure up. I am prepared to die & suffer eternal damnation for my evil life. But, alas, I am gods favorite dog, so we’ll see if she wants to throw me to the flames. I’m banking on the ole ‘hard to get’ for the win. If you were god, you’d get off hanging with a bunch of sheep? Blasphemy

 

Nah, no fiery eternity in your future. You will be sentenced to climb one fourteener a week, every week, and 57 every leap year.

 

Bertrand Russell's book "Why I Am Not a Christian" was mentioned earlier here. As I recall (it has been many years), one of Russell's main arguments for not being a Christian was that Jesus believed in hell.

 

It’s turtles all the way down.

 

Speaking of her who was a horrible person. She loved poverty not the poor. Read Christopher Hitchens devil’s advocacy (it’s a real position) about her.

 

3 professions exist to seek and understand the unknown.

1. Philosophers
2. Theologians
3. Scientists.

Some of you only care what one person in that group can teach us.

Some of us are interested in more.

 

Of course. But in a book which has “the trees of the field clap their hands”, what did Jesus mean by hell ?