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War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    I miss the War in Ukraine thread.
     
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  2. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    It's called consequences. Sometimes actions and words have consequences. Sometimes those consequences occur some time after the words and actions occur. So someone could be in office, say or do some foolish things, and the next person in the job has to deal with the consequences of those words and actions. Trump weakened NATO, which was a great benefit to Putin's plans to invade Ukraine. Trump believed that the U.S. did not need NATO, and that only his petulance would persuade Europe to agree to fund their own defense. Putin found Trump to be quite the useful idiot. Even after Trump left office, he continued to say things like the war would end one day after he took office. The only way he could mean such an idiotic statement (maybe he didn't mean it, and would later say, "Who knew stopping wars could be so complicated?") is if he were to pull the plug on aid to Ukraine, delivering Zelenskyy's head on a platter to Putin. Notice that Trump never said he could get Russia to agree to go back to its borders when he ended the war.

    Our bases in Iraq and Syria have been attacked non-stop for about a decade. Trump did nothing when Iran fired missiles into a U.S. base, causing casualties.

    The southern border is a separate issue from wars and attacks around the world. Pouring all our money into our version of the Wall of China would still not solve the problem. Putting 50,000 troops on the border would not solve the problem. And you mentioning this in the same breath that you talk about Russia's invasion of Ukraine means that you just don't understand the seriousness of Russia expanding its empire through invasion. You don't understand what an arms race is. You don't understand what double-digit inflation is like. You don't understand what an economic disaster this is for the free world. And GUESS WHAT? Trump had FOUR YEARS to do something about the southern border, but he did VERY LITTLE. What the hell do you think he would do with four more years? Run his mouth some more? I'm still waiting for some evidence that Mexico is paying for Trump's wall. Are you?

    The truth is that Trump is a very good . . . con-man. And you like being conned. You do not understand how his incompetence is hurting you (and the rest of the nation) long-term, because you can't see beyond the end of your nose, much less into next year. You think that whoever is in charge should be blamed for what happens at that moment, except when Trump is in charge and he blames someone else.
     
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  3. 92gator

    92gator GC Hall of Fame

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    Trump got NATO members to pay more; he did not dissolve NATO.

    ...and your excuses do not nullify the FACT that Russia did not invade Ukraine while Trump was in office...but DID, after almost a year after Joe took office.


    I don't recall this--what I do recall, is Trump deploying a smart bomb and upholding Barry's 'line in the sand' against Syria.

    Mentioned together b/c it is linear, being financed by the same source-us, taking on debt.

    I prioritize us; you prioritize Ukraine, because.... ?????

    boogeymen for yesteryear?

    Paranoid about USSR that was vanquished under Reagan?

    Russia that can't get past a sliver of Urkaine half the width of Florida?

    (when what it really amounts to, is you carrying Biden's water, echoing his talking points...).

    Of course I do. I lived through the 80's. Guess what? MAD has not expired.

    Russia will not touch NATO.

    ...and Ukraine is a member of NATO.

    ...and I hope not to, but y'all seem hell bent on introducing us to it, with your reckless war mongering, utter negligence for OUR border, while demanding we defend Ukraine's, and not giving a shit about our problems, while demanding that we pay for Z's corruption...by us, taking on more debt.

    Probably too busy fighting yall's phantom Russia Hoax bullshit, then Covid...and notwithstanding epic distractions, still did a hell of a lot better than Biden.

    Under Biden: 100,000/week; almost 8 MILLION UNDOC'T in less than 3 years!

    Nah. The truth is Biden is an endless need for excuses, and you seem to enjoy carrying his water, and perpetuating excuses for his lapses.

    That, and being the flag bearer for Ukraine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2023
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  4. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Who said that Trump dissolved NATO? I said that he weakened NATO.
    a) Russia's military was not ready to invade in 2020.

    b) Putin did not want to hurt Trump's chances of being re-elected. Having a divisive clown in the White House (especially one that can be manipulated with a few compliments!) is something that every Russian dictator dreams about. Trump believes that he could negotiate a deal with Putin and negotiate him all the way back to Russia. Trump would have just as much success doing that as he did building his wall and making Mexico pay for it. Had Putin invaded during Trump's second term, he could get a two-for-one deal: a wealthy country in his pocket, and the entertainment of watching the U.S. disintegrate as America demands action from the Orange One (except it would probably be too late at that point, since Trump probably would not provide Ukraine with anything to slow down the Russian army).
    Operation Martyr Soleimani - Wikipedia

    About 110 U.S. soldiers were diagnosed with traumatic brain injuries after 12 missiles struck two bases in Iraq. Trump declined to respond, falsely claiming that no soldiers were injured. Iran made another attack on the U.S. bases in 2019 with 20-24 missiles. Trump made it clear that he did not believe in major military action. When the going got tough, Trump folded his tent and pretended there was no problem. He would have done the same had he been re-elected and Putin invaded Ukraine on his watch. Trump was all talk, no action. He didn't scare anybody outside of the U.S. He would much rather spend his time trying to buy Greenland.
    I prioritize Ukraine because this is an opportunity of a lifetime, and your right wing clowns in Congress are blowing it. It is a chance to defeat a major enemy without risking the lives of any of our soldiers. We're stopping a potential future world war in its tracks, and removing one of the great evils (Russian imperialism) from the world. Russia is always going to oppose whatever the U.S. is doing, in whatever way they can. They know historically that we have stood in the way of greater conquests for them, and they want us neutered almost as badly as you do, in your ignorance. Anyone that is still standing at the end of the Ukraine War will have a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge of how wars will be fought in the future, and, if not properly reined in, will have the confidence to continue invading other countries (Ukraine wouldn't do that because they have to re-build their country). Russia will just need time to re-build their army, which is a lot easier than re-building a country. And they will have the resources to do it.
    Not so much as your illegal immigrant boogeymen.
    Russia didn't stay vanquished. Did Germany stay vanquished after WWI?
    Russia is being held back by a very sizable and capable military supplied with U.S. weapons and advice. This is the largest war since WWII. You don't seem to get that. And large wars can easily go sideways and expand into other countries.

    Ukraine wouldn't last but a few months without U.S. aid. Russia would cut through Ukraine like a buzzsaw. And move on to the next target. The aid so far has slowed Russia down, but it needs to continue to have a chance to defeat Russia.
    I don't especially like Biden or his domestic policies. He does seem to understand the seriousness of the Ukraine War, which is something the Orange One does not. And he seems capable of accomplishing things when Congress cooperates with him, something that the Donald did very little of. Biden seems to have good advisors on foreign policy.
    Ukraine is a member of NATO? Since when? Do you have a link for that?

    Russia will not attack NATO at its current strength. Duh! But they would wait for the right opportunity to present itself; an economic calamity, a serious disagreement between countries, something like that. Putin would rebuild as much of his former empire as he could without touching NATO, and try to destabilize other parts of the world while developing new wonder-weapons, and wait for an opportunity to attack. Putin would also try to push Trump to remove U.S. bases from Europe, weakening Europe further.

    You seem to think that history is a straight line; whatever is happening now will automatically continue on its course, until we decide to change it. Low inflation is our birthright! (Even though low inflation was partially a by-product of ending the arms race with Russia after Russia's economy collapsed.)
    There is good debt, and there is bad debt. Debt that pays for itself ten times over within a decade is absolutely good debt--in fact, it is great debt. We should stand in line for as long as it takes to get our hands on that debt. Spending money we don't have on a 2,000-mile wall and watching immigrants climb over it or tunnel under it--well that's about as foolish a debt as you can come up with.
    Everyone in Central and South America wants to come here. Especially with Venezuela having problems, a lot of people want to move to the U.S. The truth is: the U.S. needs immigrants. They perform a lot of jobs that Americans WILL NOT DO. Who else is going to pick our vegetables, do roofing jobs, janitorial work, slaughterhouse work, etc.? We need to do better at documenting and controlling the immigrants coming here, but we do need them to come here. We don't have a system that allows us to document and inspect all the people coming here. Trump's wall does not do any of that. (It doesn't even keep the immigrants out. It does injure a few, of course, but that doesn't benefit anyone.)
    Someone has to have wisdom and intelligence around here. Doesn't look likely that it will be you. You can't handle the truth.

     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2023
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  5. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Finland announces $116 million in military aid for Ukraine. They apparently were not intimidated by the thinly-veiled threats from Russia.

    Finland announces military aid package for Ukraine worth $116 million

     
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  6. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Finland aspiring to be the next Ukraine ?
     
  7. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine has no place to hide …

     
  8. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    I wonder if NATO members started a long series of "exercises" and moved noticeable amounts of troops to their borders with Russia, if Putin would have to divert assets from Ukraine to his borders?
     
  9. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Russia is most likely terrified of Finland based on the last time they tangled. Sharpshooters in the snow. I don't think they want to do it again.
     
  10. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukraine destroys three Russian Su-34 Fullback jets. They are believed to cost about $50 million each. For the war, Ukraine has destroyed 20 of the 155 Su-34's that Russia is believed to have had before the war.

    Ukraine Air Force comments of destruction of 3 Russian Su-34 fighters, gives their approximate cost

     
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  11. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    By that same logic the US should be terrified of Canada the last time they tangled.

    Seriously, why do you hate Russia with a seething hatred ? It can’t be because they invaded a sovereign country. That’s America’s modus operandi.

    Do you hate America ?
     
  12. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    I probably cannot explain it in such a way that your demented mind could understand it. :) It would be easier to wait until Russia falls and the Kremlin explains it to you.
     
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  13. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    upload_2023-12-22_14-58-46.jpeg
     
  14. docspor

    docspor GC Hall of Fame

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    In 1912, the German Kaiser visited Switzerland and asked a Swiss minister what the 250,000 strong Swiss army would do if Germany attacked with 500,000 troops. Reply: "Shoot twice and go home."
     
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  15. G8trGr8t

    G8trGr8t Premium Member

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    Shot out of the air with missiles fired by Ukrainian troops "hunting" for them. Reads like forward deployment of patriot missiles coupled with blind luck or good intel. The fact that they hit 3 doesn't speak highly of Russian jet avoidance tech.
     
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  16. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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  17. Gatorhead

    Gatorhead GC Hall of Fame

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    Ukrainian podcasters confirming the Forward deployment of Patriot Systems.
     
  18. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    The Patriot missile system seriously underperforms. And to think it’s the best the US has got.
     
  19. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    I know, it only shoots down one Russian plane at a time. You would think that with Russia's low-quality planes, one missile could shoot down two or three at a time.
     
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  20. Gatorhead

    Gatorhead GC Hall of Fame

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    The Russo / Finland conflict is an interesting study. Also interesting is the career of the Finnish leader Mannerheim.

    Finland, while losing some territory to the Soviet Union, was the only German ally that emerged from WW2 somewhat unscathed.

    It has been suggested by many historians and indeed by direct quotes from Hitler, that the Finns humbling of the Soviet military strengthened Hitlers belief that the Soviets would be rather easy to defeat in a clash of arms.