Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

Israel is not “retaliating” by bombing innocent civilians— like Russia in Ukraine— to kill civilians as a war terror tactic. And calling Israel’s explanations “bullshit” in posts while skipping over, without comment, all the posts a lot the terror structure in Gaza or the use of hospitals as bases and places to shoot from and ambulances to carry terrorists or weapons just denies the realities faced by Israel. Allowing Hamas free run because they hide behind civilians would allow them to remain in power and work to repeat their atrocities. The “choice” was Mande by Hamas, not Israel. They are responsible for the deaths of the civilians that they hide behind.

 

A person used it in this thread after another poster argued that Palestinian lives have value. Isn't that the dismissive use? That poster could have said, "I agree that Palestinians lives matter. All lives matter." Yet, he omitted the first sentence. It's most often used to try and shut down a discussion without acknowledging the humanity of a group who's suffering or feeling that they aren't valued.

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about the sentiment. I'm talking very specifically about the phrase.

 

The analogy to Ukraine completely falls apart considering that it was Russia that initiated the war against Ukraine in the first place. Were it not for the cross the border terrorism of October 7, Israel would have never initiated the bombing campaign of Gaza and let's not forget the annihilation of Israel is part of the Hamas charter and a leader of Hamas is on the record pledging repeats of the terrorist attacks of October 7 in which 1,400 Israelis were brutally murdered. Unless I missed Ukraine has not pledged to annihilate Russia.

 

I guess we can agree the context in which the phrase is used is the central issue?

 

What does it matter? For one, you’re not going to do anything about it and two, why the need to make a distinction? As if they are two separate entities who direct their own plans. It’s horrible watching Israel getting played this badly. Because of the shitty leadership in Jerusalem, Israel will only have more terror in their future.

 

If somebody harmed a family member of yours and you decided to go kill one of their loved ones, you might well feel justified. Some folks might even say you were. But that doesn't mean that you aren't responsible for killing that person's loved ones. You don't get to say, "The other person is responsible for what happened to his loved one. If he hadn't my family member, none of this would have happened."

Of course Israel is going to claim that there was some justification for why it bombed an ambulance, hospital, university, school, refugee camp, etc. It's very easy to say, "Oh, Hamas used that ambulance or building. The collateral damage is their fault." Because they know there's a crowd who will believe them no matter what because Hamas are the "bad guys" and Israel are the "good guys."

 

Yes. 100%. And I can't think of many times I've heard the phrase used where a person wasn't trying to use it dismissively or condescendingly. That is the context I think of when I hear that phrase.

 

So if Ukraine had fired a missile into Russia and started the war, it would be totally cool for Russia to carpet-bomb Ukrainian cities to punish the civilians there? That's your outlook?

 

You know, that’s fine imo. And, for the sake of full disclosure, when the BLM movement first started, I held the exact same sentiment as you about that phrase. As time passed, though, I started to realize that, because I was so offended by the context in which it was being used initially, specifically as a push back against the legitimacy of BLM, I wasn’t actually even willing to accept the use of it, at all. I was subverting the truth of the phrase, just like they were. I was just doing it for a different reason. I was allowing bigots to decide that for me. The more I objected to the phrasing, the more conversations that initiated on the subject. And, when I started removing my own personal sensibilities from the equation, and listening more to why a particular person had used it, I found we were more aligned in our thinking than I had originally supposed.

 

Hamas didn’t kill one person. They killed 1400 and launched tens of thousands of rockets into Israel from a civilian areas. Try an analogy that fits the facts. Or just discuss the facts that happened rather than creating a fact pattern that didn’t happen and isn’t applicable. This isn’t an issue of responsibility or revenge. It’s an issue of having to get rid of the government that did that and promises to do it again. And which has launched missile barraged and terror attacked before. Whose charter is founded in slaughtering Jews. Meanwhile, don’t demean the posts above by me and others documenting the use of civilian infrastructure— the hospitals, ambulances, mosques, schools etc. to commit these atrocities. Posts with pictures and video you never even commented on. You don’t get to fiat away facts by ignoring them.

 

The analogy fits just fine. Retaliating against innocent people isn't justice.

Right. The only people who get wave away inconvenient facts are the ones who accept Israel killing innocent women and children as the cost of doing business. Because Israel is always justified in its bombings. Any target they hit could be Hamas. And even when it isn't Hamas, it could have been. So the rest of us just need to shut up about the innocent people dying.

Hamas murdering 1400 people was evil and tragic. I will never struggle to condemn them for it. But Israel has killed how many women and children since that happened? And I'm supposed to just accept that as okay?

 

Even conceding for the sake of argument that Israel's response was disproportionate if Hamas had constructed bomb shelters for the civilian population of Gaza rather than a 300-mile network of tunnels primarily in Gaza City far fewer civilians would have lost their lives. Keep in mind that Israel had bombed Gaza in the past in response to rocket attacks by Hamas so the possibility of airstrikes should not have come as a surprise albeit the scope of the current attack is far greater than anything that Israel had launched against Hamas in the past.

 

Hamas was "duly elected" in the mid 2000s. They then got in a conflict with the other leading Palestinian party, drove them out of Gaza, and have ruled essentially as a military junta since that point. Nearly half of the people in Gaza are children who weren't even alive when Hamas was elected. (Not that the innocents who voted for Hamas 15+ years ago deserve to die either.)

Killing innocent children and women to pay Hamas back for its terrorism is not acceptable.

P.S. Netanyahu and Likud propped up Hamas because they saw it as dividing the Palestinian people and thereby weakening them.

 

Hamas wasn't going to do that. They don't care about the innocent Palestinians. Frankly, they benefit from Israel killing innocent Palestinians. It creates more terrorists they can use for their jihad. Make no mistake, I despise Hamas as much as you do.

 

That seems like a better excuse for killing Hamas rather than Palestinian children.

I don't understand the reactions of some here. I don't think any poster is suggesting that the Hamas attacks were not absolutely horrific and all acknowledge that Israel has every right to remove Hamas from the face of the planet. Similarly, I think every poster understands that there will be civilian casualties.

That being said, international law still applies and every reasonable effort should be made to spare the lives of INNOCENT (yes, there is such a thing) Palestinians, especially children. Some react as though that proposition renders one an anti-Semite, which I find offensive.

No nation gets a pass on committing war crimes because of the nature of the way in which they were attacked. I've read them, those exceptions don't exist. To be clear, I'm not suggesting Israel has committed war crimes, just that they are forbidden from doing so. I understand the nature of this conflict can make compliance with international law more difficult, but the obligation is on the warring party to do so.

 

Israel isn't committing war crimes. There is the issue. You are 100% wrong on that. Israel is making every reasonable effort to spare the lives of innocent Palestinians. More people wanting Israel to do nothing to try to rid themselves of Hamas.

 

That’s because a certain contingent of folks didn’t like the original phrase that “All Lives Matter” spun off from.

 

I think we can all agree, From the River to the Sea that all Lives Matter

 

1. Please point out the posters that take the stance that wanting to limit innocent civilian deaths in Gaza equals anti semitic. I don’t think anyone takes that position and it’s just a straw man at this point.
2. Please point out the war crimes Israel has committed. They have not. When posters imply that Israel is committing war crimes when they are not …. That seems to be Anti- Semitic. And several
Posters on here have done just that and much more ( accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing/genocide.)
Did Israel give notice to civilians of what they were doing.. yes.. they warned everyone to love south. They held off on the ground attacks for over a week. Hamas has used ambulances, hospitals and schools as shields.
Egypt refused to let refugees enter? Why is that. In fact no one is opening their doors to let Palestinians enter.. why? Makes since Israel won’t since they are at war.. but all the other Arab nations refusing? Hmmm.? Maybe because just like Hamas they want a high body count.