Antisemitism in the US

Here's the thing, "human shields" would be useless if no one was bombing anyone

 

Short answer regarding hospitals, at least in my opinion is you don't hit them. It's maddening that Hamas uses them as cover. But you still don't take that shot. I had said it before on these boards but couldn't find it. But Kenneth Roth and Malcolm Nance have made that point now. I don't get into the abstractions of whether they lose their protection under international law. We know what hitting the hospital would do. So I say no.

 

I am by no means a supporter of the settlers on the West Bank. You are aware that virtually none of the victims of the Hamas atrocities of October 7 were settlers (not that even they should have subject to the atrocities committed by the terrorist organization whose goal is the complete eradication of the State of Israel and Jews in general. The Kibbutzim that were attacked were all well within Israel's pre-1967 borders and some of them date back to before Israel's independence. The residents of those Kibbutzim were among the most liberal Israelis as were the young Israelis were slaughtered at the music festival. They were not supporters of Likud and Bibi Netanyahu.

Also remember that Israel was willing to accept the original 2-state solution under the 1947 UN resolution partitioning Palestine, which by the way was virtually never an independent country. The goal of the Arab states at the time was the destruction of Israel. Getting back to the current situation, the atrocities of October 7 demonstrated that the existence of a terrorist state on the border with Israel is absolutely intolerable. The attempt at coexistence by Israel (and I'm not defending all of Israel's policies with respect to Gaza) was a failure that resulted in an unspeakable tragedy.

 

The far left and far right are equally antisemitic? A new study suggests otherwise

 

Gaza isnt a state at all, that's the problem. To the extent that is controlled by terrorists, much of that has been enabled by Israeli policy, deliberately in some ways in fact. This is the sort of fatalism that has driven the Likudists to power (and Hamas), destroyed the humanist and liberal elements of Israeli politics and Zionism itself, and everyone is like "what can you do?" When we set no conditions for Israel, this is what we get and we get nothing in return for our arrangement either.

 

Interesting points. I can see various angles here.

I consider there to be a spectrum...... just being anti PC and having a normal amount of bias..... harboring significant, affirmative racial resentment...all the way up to full on, conscious hate. I think a person who doesn't want someone of a different race living next door is probably less likely to say that out loud than they would have been 30 years ago. Same for the White father who is angry upon learning that his daughter is dating a Black guy. Those people may actually struggle internally and are more likely to come up with some pretext for their feelings.

Even many who are further along the spectrum go out of their way to conceal their identity to avoid the occupational or social repercussions. That's something they didn't have to do as much throughout history unless maybe they were undercover, in public office, or committing actual crimes. Even guys like Fuentes who are publicly "out," mostly unabashed in their racism, and aren't going out physically harming people at least partially obscure their hate behind the ambiguity offered by purported satire. They've also traded in their face tattoos for tailored suits to convey a more mainstreamable brand of bigotry.

 

Thank you. I thought of posting something similar recently but am very conscious of how serious this topic is, how personal it is to many, and how little I understand. You have wonderfully summarized what I've been thinking the last few weeks.

 

The invasion of Israel by Hamas seems to have released a firestorm of anti-semitism from unexpected places. That it continues and has seemed to grow is Very surprising and unutterably sad.

 

One of the challenges of trying to apply Post-Colonialist theory to Israel is trying to figure out what the heck was actually pre-colonial. The Biblical kingdoms of Israel? Canaanites?

Because that land has been colonized for essentially the entirety of modern history since at least the fall of the Kingdom of Israel.

After the Kingdom of Israel you’ve got, in succession, the Assyrian Empire, the Babylonian Empire, the Persian Empire, a brief partial-interruption in the colonial history with the return to Zion and Second Temple Period, then the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Rashidun Caliphate, Crusaders, the Mongol Sultanate, the Ottoman Empire, the British Mandate, and finally the State of Israel. None of those since at least the Second Temple Period (nor either the Arab nor the Jewish population of modern Israel/Palestine for that matter) are the “native” population of that land.

 

That study is dated in June. I would have agreed then. And I don't know the numbers or percentages on the far Left that express the kind of sentiments state above, as opposed to general support for Palestinian rights. Hopefully it's very limited. I want to believe that, badly. But it is substantial enough to be dangerous and instill fear in Jews in THIS country, not unreasonably. That's my threshold. But hopefully it is very small. Still needs to be called out, because there are a fairly significant amount of displays.




Can confirm about young Catholic conservatives. That's yet a 3rd brand of anti-Semitism, though it comes from the same place as the old European stereotypes, many of which originated with the Church, it must be said. It was only in the 60s (Vatican II), that the Jews were officially absolved of Deicide and anti-Semitism (and Islamophobia) condemned in Nostra Aetate. From Wiki:

Nostra aetate (from Latin: "In our time"), or the Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions, is an official declaration of the Vatican II, an ecumenical council of the Catholic Church. It was promulgated on 28 October 1965 by Pope Paul VI.[1] Its name comes from its incipit, the first few words of its opening sentence, as is tradition. It passed the Council by a vote of 2,221 to 88 of the assembled bishops.

It is the shortest of the 16 final documents of the Council and "the first in Catholic history to focus on the relationship that Catholics have with Jews." Similarly, Nostra aetate is considered a monumental declaration in describing the Church's relationship with Muslims.[2] It "reveres the work of God in all the major faith traditions."[3] It begins by stating its purpose of reflecting on what humankind has in common in these times when people are being drawn closer together.

The RadTrads of today's US under "Catholic Integralism" are also very dangerous. Very, very dangerous. But that is another thread.

 

Sad sign of the times. My wife has a membership to the locally JCC gym. Just texted me this

I just pulled into JCC. They have a police officer in parking lot with vest and gun standing there checking all cars out. Uncomfortable for sure plus additional one when u enter lobby.

 

Of course. There is also the element that British considered the Zionists terrorists (as they were assassinating people and such), and you could say they were doing anti-colonial struggle
for some time too, prior to the formation of Israel in 1948. I really don't think much of that matters personally, you can critique Israeli policy simply on humanist grounds without making it a Franz Fanon thing too. I do see why it might be useful to place it as part of a larger struggle, given the links to the USA/West, and its prior support for say, South Africa, Rhodesia, etc.

 

Ultimately, if you are concerned about anti-Semitism, I would think distancing Jewishness from Israel would be the ideal policy. If Israel is determined to be an actor in world affairs and play the game of nations as a regional power (as people insist they have the right to), anti-Semitism will be much more useful and attractive politically for people in opposition, and also for people who are simply bigoted opportunists (the Nick Fuentes of the world). Like people should want to avoid at all costs supporting Israel = being Jewish. I certainly wouldnt want America = Christianity or being white or something.

 

man that is some next level pretzel twisting logic there.

 

That's very simple logic actually. You don't need a shield if no one is attacking you.

 

See this is what I get hung up on. Because I have been critical of Israel in the past. But I've always reserved the term "anti-Semitic" for people who hate Jewish people because they are Jews. You know, good ole fashioned bigotry.

 

That's as untrue and overly generalized as someone on the left saying "everyone on the right is Fascist", and as a left leaning Jew, I find it offensive (as offensive as I do the inverse sentiment quoted by me earlier in this sentence).

 

“Most obviously on the right”?? That’s quite a statement.

If I’m not mistaken we had a Million Man March several years ago promoted, organized, and performed by One of the most antisemitic men in the world. Was it George Bush 41? Well not exactly.

And who was quoted several years ago calling an area Hymietown? I don’t think it was Newt Gingrich.

And just which Right wing firebrand said “If the Jews want to get it on, tell them to pin their yarmulkes back and come over to my house”? Was it Dan Quayle? Well, not exactly.

 

And if no one was bombing anyone terrorists who have carte blanche to commit atrocities unless they were stopped in the act. Once they crossed the border they would have effectively have immunity.

 

Those employing colonialism as a criticism of Israel or Jews are wrong, even if there is nothing wrong with supporting Palestinians. But support for Palestinians should not mean support (tacit or otherwise) of terrorism as a means to fight the powerful. But both anti-Jewish & anti-Muslim/Arab sentiments are rife in the US and the western world, however, with the current situation, it's inconvenient for some to be anti-Jewish while socially acceptable to be anti-Muslim/Arab. Other hand, mention George Soros or Jews controlling the media etc. and well, you see people's true colors come out.