The Inconvenient Truth of Palestine

Well that is their oft stated mission.

 

Some notion of pan-Arabism and Arab nationalism is definitely a modern thing, about as old as Zionism.

 

deep hate rooted in religion. for something that is supposed to be for good, religion sure has resulted in so much bad

 

Israel didn’t have the army and resources for large scale expulsions in 1948. Especially up against 5 much larger armies. And they lost territory in that war.

 

South of Gaza City.

 

As a point of information. The modern Pan Arabist movement probably dates back to the founding in 1943 of the Baʿth Party by Pan-Arabist thinkers Michel ʿAflaq and Salah al-Din Bitar. The movement was furthered by the founding of the Arab League in 1945. The organized secular Zionist movement was originated by Theodore Herzl in 1897, religious Zionism although not a formal movement dates back much further.

 

Arabs and Jews are descended from Abraham. We are cousins— both Semitic people.

 

As I said, Israel did not have an army to displace hundreds of thousands of people and fight 5 countries in 1948. Were there sole expulsions. Clearly. The Arabs in Israel also took up arms. Were there peaceful people expelled. I am sure. But not in vast numbers by Israel.

 

Not defending everything that Israel has done although for a little balance the link below (included in another post) is very informative.
The Nakba Obsession

 

I have a far more cynical view on their motives. Let's say that the leadership of Hamas, last elected in 2006 and largely residing in Qatar, wanted a giant massacre of their own people at the hands of Israel rather than the slow, low level conflict that struggles to break through to public consciousness on a nightly basis and figured this was the fastest way to that result. It serves two purposes: it radicalizes whatever is left of their people (helping lead to the next point) and it keeps the money flowing to "the cause." The problem is that there is no winning chess move here. These guys win strategically either way. There is no way Qatar hands the leadership over to Israel to answer for this. Israel isn't going to attack Qatar. Neither are we. So, yeah...outside of just watching the moves, not sure what can be done here.

 

You think the Israeli army is going to stop at Gaza City? Or that there is space south of there to hold that many people. Or resources? There is going to be a truly staggering amount of civilian death if they invade. But I'm not sure what choice there is here for the Israelis in the short-term either.

 

Exactly. Unfortunately, each side sees the other as the black sheep (to extreme). At some point someone pissed on someone’s foot instead of offering to wash it and and chose not be hospitable like I am pretty sure the texts preach.

 

Which is the smartest thing Hamas can do, not wear uniforms and blend in as much as possible to blame IDF in that every person they kill is an innocent. Hamas will not admit that some of their "soldiers" were killed.

 

Agreed that the Qataris won’t deliver them to Israel, but with enough outside pressure there may be a small but non-zero chance they expel them from Qatar.

And Israel wouldn’t have to attack Qatar. Neither Israel nor the US are exactly strangers to capturing or killing terrorists in countries that we are not at war with but who would strongly prefer that said terrorists not be captured or killed.

 

I suspect your second paragraph might be the pathway here, although I'm sure that the leadership will be quite careful and that Israel would need to wait a bit. I doubt we are pushing hard for an expulsion from Qatar as such an operation would likely be much harder in a place like Iran, where they would likely end up if they needed to leave Qatar.

 

Qatar needs to expel the leadership just like we expected Afghan to expel bin Laden. Right now, they are harboring terrorists. The leadership needs to be held accountable for their actions and countries should not provide them safe refuge

 

I agree with this on both counts.

Palestinians elected a radical terrorist regime that was bent on murdering and dismembering every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel, and they will pay the price for it.

Israel elected a divisive politician, and they also have paid a steep price for it. The massive public unrest related to the judicial overhaul contributed to letting their guard down against exactly this kind of attack.

 

I'd actually really like the idea of a Hague trial for these guys. Go Milisevic on them. But I doubt that is an option. If they expel them, they will just end up in Iran. A downgrade, for sure, but not much of a punishment. I have a feeling that the leadership in Iran isn't thrilled with them, but they won't show any cracks in public.

 

Check also: The Balfour Declaration

 

It's a wonderful story about your grandmother, truly, but her having to be smuggled out of Russia is evidence of her victimization and many like her, despite that successful effort and the fruits being her descendants success.

Ordinary Palestinians are victims of Hamas and similarly to your grandmother wrt Russia, victims of larger ancient struggles and bloodshed that have befallen the region, as are Jews and the ancient diaspora and subsequent genocidal efforts in this region and in Europe. I don't think it's fair to put the onus on those without power to rise up or escape otherwise be blamed for what others do when the very problems are largely out of their individual control.

Not saying you or anyone else is implying this at all but....I do see victim blaming of Palestinians from some quarters as having a not so faint echo of the anti-Semitism that underlies blaming Jews for their own demise because they didn't try to escape Europe or fight back against the Nazis.

I also tend strongly toward rejecting might makes right thinking that rationalizes bloodshed predicated upon blaming victims for their own demise. I can't say absolutely since as victimization goes, many victims do have a hand in it in some way. But the choices themselves are within a context that is contingent upon pretty terrible and messy sociopolitical conditions that all were born into and lead to such onerous options in the first place.