The Inconvenient Truth of Palestine

Many Jews in Israel come from middle eastern countries that kicked Jews out after centuries of being integrated into the populations or also fled. They came to other countries too where they were able to integrate into society. Sadly, to this day, there is still a refugee camp in Gaza.

 

In his influential book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, the Israeli historian Benny Morris writes that in the 1920s and 1930s, as it became clear that Arabs would resist Jewish sovereignty and the British would sooner or later restrict Jewish immigration, “a consensus or near-consensus formed among the Zionist leaders around the idea of transfer as the natural, efficient and even moral solution to the demographic dilemma.” In 1938, David Ben-Gurion, who would become Israel’s first prime minister, declared, “I support compulsory transfer.” The following year his chief rival, revisionist leader Ze’ev Jabotinsky, concurred that “the Arabs must make room for the Jews in Eretz Israel. If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs.”

When establishment American Jewish groups blame Arab and Palestinian leaders for having brought the Nakba on themselves by rejecting the United Nations’ 1947 partition proposal, they overlook the fact that because Arabs constituted roughly two-thirds of the population of mandatory Palestine, they would have comprised roughly half of the people inside even the territory allocated for a Jewish state. Ensuring a large Jewish majority required their expulsion—a process that began months before the Arab governments declared war. It is for this reason that even Morris, who unlike some other historians does not believe the Zionist leadership formulated a specific expulsion plan, admits that “Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst.”

Could Israel Carry Out Another Nakba?

 

Do you know what happened in 1970? King Hussein started slaughtering thousands of Palestinians. They fled to the border with Israel and Israel took them in. It helps to know history because it allows you to understand what is happening now.

 

Except that they didn’t expel the Arabs in 1948. That want how history transpired. Instead, the Haggnah encouraged emigration to Israel and the expulsion of Jews from countries in the Middle East made it easy

 

And their refugee status basically hasn't changed in 50 years, there is a contradiction between Zionism and multiethnic/religious democracy that Israel has decided to resolve with apartheid rather than integration.

 

Arch, this is a difficult post. Just shows you what hate would drive people to.

I know Palestinian people who have suffered under West Bank occupation and oppression.

And I have numerous Jewish friends that I work with and admire.

While many Americans may hope HAMAS is wiped off the earth, they are just one of numerous anti Israeli / anti West terrorist organizations.

Iran, Russia, N Korea, and other powerful entities will coalesce to fund the next set of martyrs. They do not want a pro Western democracy in the middle east. (will Israel really be a democracy much longer considering their political direction)?

I don't know about the posters here but I see smoke signals from war hawks increasing around the world.

China / Taiwan S China Sea
Central Africa / rare earth resources
Eastern Europe
N / S Korea

Many others

Throw in political upheaval, immigration crises all over the planet and the climate threat -

Add a dash of the always available religious intolerance.........

The wargods want BLOOD! Our disgusting species can't have a century without a massive conflagration now can they.

60 million dead, blood glass, of WW2, and all the proxy wars since, has run dry. Time for a refill. A big refill.

Great time to be in the armaments industry or have stock in it, that is, until the missiles start hitting your community.

 

Because what is good Hamas isn't what's good for the Palestinians. You're painting with broad brushes here.

 

I have been pondering this question as well.

My 2 cent version is that Clerical extremists in conjunction with Russia, Iran, N Korea
and other anti western factions were deeply threatened by the prospect of strengthing ties between Israel, Saudi Arabia and the US.

I do not think HAMAS could have pulled off Oct 7 off without significant help.

I believe it goes much deeper than that.

This was a concerted effort to use the old Jewish hatred mantra to rally up the troops, in hopes of creating a wider conflict or Arab jihad against the West.

 

It is really tough to look and compare views pre and post WW2. The mindset of most of the world changed.
Much has been written on the animosity of the surrounding states towards the Palestinian people. That always gets lost in these discussions. The surrounding area likes the conflict zone. Keeps the militants busy.

 

Don't want to wade into a discussion that I know nothing about but, just saw on CNBC that many residents of Gaza City (in the north of Gaza that Israel has warned to evacuate) are loading cars/taxi's/carts and trying to flee to the south of Gaza, but there is no where near enough cars, fuel, power to make this happen in time. Also, the largest hospital in Gaza is in the north, and their are numerous people who needed surgery and life support who now are dying or have died to due to cutting of power. It is unlikely that this hospital can be evacuated in time either.

 

@swampspring

I was debating bt dislike and disagree--went with the latter bc you're clearly invested in this issue to the point of apparently not being able to process this rationally, so I'll table the DL and call it disagreement.

Here's the bottom line--you post a 19 page plea for understanding of the Palestinian plight, register grievances of ppl conflating Palestinian interests with Hamas, then promptly proceed to commit the exact same folly. You are literally trying to justify and downplay the atrocities committed by Hamas....bc of what's been done to Palestinians.

The only road to sympathy by rational civilized ppl, is to reject the evil that Hamas commits, which begins with recognizing their evil acts as evil.

You should note that the "evil Zionists" take pains to distinguish bt Hamas and Palestinian. Your ppl can't even do the same. IDF = Jews to them.

Note how many Palestinian sympathizers took to the streets to proudly own HAMAS' atrocities! To declare "Day of Resistance!" YOU chiming in today--after what? After HAMAS committed heinous atrocities. Not Palestinians declaring independence or demonstrsting...

Nope.

After HAMAS commits a brutal act of cowardly terrorism.

So tell me again...who's conflating Palestine with Hamas?

Your ppl made their bed by putting their eggs in the Hamas terrorist basket, rather than a Ghandi type leader, Mandela, or some other civilized voice. They double down when they raise Hamas terrorists as their revolutionary champions.

As you may recall, I'm Cuban. My ppl left Cuba bc of Castro. We distanced ourselves from him and his atrocities...and we thereby lost our homeland.

....because somethings are more important than the dirt you sprung your roots in.

Jmho/fwiw.

 

A recipe for even more bloodshed; for the loss of even more non-combatant civilians. In the urban guerrilla warfare about to happen the IDF will probably have a terrible time distinguishing between Hamas and civilians. When and how does a 19YO scared (but motivated) conscript soldier make that call in an instant. No idea what percentage they might be, but there are Palestinians there that don’t deserve to die.

 

From Wikipedia. Like any historical episode, it’s complex, different in different places and even by day. But the convenient fiction that Palestinians voluntarily abandoned their home in favor of the glamorous refugee lifestyle is just that, fiction


Further events
According to Glazer (1980, p. 111), from 15 May 1948 onwards, expulsion of Palestinians became a regular practice. Avnery (1971), explaining the Zionist rationale, says,

I believe that during this phase, the eviction of Arab civilians had become an aim of David Ben-Gurion and his government... UN opinion could very well be disregarded. Peace with the Arabs seemed out of the question, considering the extreme nature of the Arab propaganda. In this situation, it was easy for people like Ben-Gurion to believe the capture of uninhabited territory was both necessary for security reasons and desirable for the homogeneity of the new Hebrew state.[54]

Based on research of numerous archives, Morris provides an analysis of Haganah-induced flight:

Undoubtedly, as was understood by IDF intelligence, the most important single factor in the exodus of April–June was Jewish attack. This is demonstrated clearly by the fact that each exodus occurred during or in the immediate wake of military assault. No town was abandoned by the bulk of its population before the Haganah/IZL assault... The closer drew the 15 May British withdrawal deadline and the prospect of invasion by Arab states, the readier became commanders to resort to "cleansing" operations and expulsions to rid their rear areas.[19]: 265  [R]elatively few commanders faced the moral dilemma of having to carry out the expulsion clauses. Townspeople and villagers usually fled their homes before or during battle... though (Haganah commanders) almost invariably prevented inhabitants, who had initially fled, from returning home...[19]: 165 

Edgar O'Ballance, a military historian, adds,

Israeli vans with loudspeakers drove through the streets ordering all the inhabitants to evacuate immediately, and such as were reluctant to leave were forcibly ejected from their homes by the triumphant Israelis whose policy was now openly one of clearing out all the Arab civil population before them... From the surrounding villages and hamlets, during the next two or three days, all the inhabitants were uprooted and set off on the road to Ramallah... No longer was there any "reasonable persuasion". Bluntly, the Arab inhabitants were ejected and forced to flee into Arab territory... Wherever the Israeli troops advanced into Arab country the Arab population was bulldozed out in front of them.[55]





1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight - Wikipedia

 

@tampagtr
You can’t quote Wikipedia on something this important and sensitive.
Terrible idea.

 

Could any large city in the US evacuate 1.1 million citizens in 24 hours, and that's with no threat of war? No!

Think about it, Egypt closed the border, where are they going to go? The Mediterranean Sea?

This is a death march order.

 

Yes, history is inconvenient to my take that people shouldn't slaughter one another over nationalistic and religious beefs. We are not prisoners of history fortunately, we could always learn from it!

 

Uhhuh....if that actually were your take.

 

Counterpoint: how many cities get a 24 hour heads up that the shit's fixn to hit the fan?

 

Remind me again who the elected government of Gaza is. Hamas does not have any power that the people do not let them have. And actually Hamas (or the people) could end this siege and forestall an attack today if they wanted to. But they don’t want to. They want the international community to end it for them so they can declare victory again.

 

That's an awfully disingenuous framing of the situation in Gaza. When did Hamas last hold elections? Was it before or after the violent conflict that led to them taking control of Gaza?

How are "the people" going to end this siege and forestall an attack?