Netanyahu tells Israel ‘We are at war’ after Hamas launches an unprecedented attack, killing at leas

damn, sure are a lot of side-posting rabbit holes in this thread.

 

I can understand why you and others might find it a difficult ethical question, but I don't personally believe it is. There is no moral or ethical justification for a complete annihilation of people in order to remove the few, so to speak.

If there is a difficulty it is in getting at that few.

I'm against capital punishment. I can understand why people support it on some visceral level. I don't want to derail this thread but there are numerous ethical problems inherent in allowing govt to kill its own citizens.

 

I will say that the opinions expressed herein differ with my opinions expressed previously, which largely come from an idea of the state's responsibility to protect. But I had a hard time quickly dismissing Peter Beinart's moral reasoning, even no government could survive adopting it, and which is contrary to JustWarDoctrine. You really should read the full thing (and read him weekly as I do) to fully appreciate his thinking (very briefly, he is a very observant Jew that strongly believes Israel cannot survive as a democratic state without full political equality for Palestinians - he uses Jewish moral reasoning, in which he has significant training):

And I feel like at this moment, it’s so hard for Jews to hear anything other than what is gonna keep us safe? And I think that is because of this powerful metaphor of family that has been reinforced by a real trauma that is kind of often in the deep recesses of people, but then comes to the surface at moments like this when you see Jews being killed, being kidnapped, and horrific, horrific things. I have no patience for people who justify those things. I have no patience for them. I really don’t wanna be in conversation with those folks right now. It’s too painful for me. But I also cannot try to prove to people that I, and people like me, that we genuinely love other Jews and genuinely feel for other Jews by endorsing a set of reactions that put aside the horror that they bring to Palestinians. Put aside the horror of cutting off Gaza from electricity and water and food. Put aside the horror. This does not keep Jews safe. If it kept Jews safe, what happened on Saturday morning would never have happened because Israel has blockaded Gaza for more than 15 years now. Israel has pummeled Gaza, bombarded Gaza again and again and again. G-d knows if beating up on Palestinians, if brutalizing Palestinians kept Jews safe, Jews in Israel would have been safe a long time ago, starting with the Nakba when most of the people who live in Gaza were forced into Gaza. If this was the way to keep Jews safe, this would never have happened. This logic in other contexts, if it were not us, we would understand it so simply. The logic is for every Hamas member that you kill, for every bunch of weapons that you destroy, you are producing more trauma, and more hatred, and more rage, and more people, and they will join Hamas. And if Hamas doesn’t exist because the Palestinians have been fighting against Zionism in Israel long before Hamas started, some other organization will exist. And if you get rid of this set of guns, people are ingenious and creative. They will find more guns. They will make more guns and you will be where we were today again.

And this is not true just for Israel. This is true for when Britain was dealing with the IRA. And when apartheid South Africa was dealing with ANC. And for that matter when the United States was dealing with its kind of neocolonial conflicts. You have to deal with the root of the problem, which is that you are cheek by jowl two peoples in a very close proximity to one another. And in the long term—maybe not even the long term—if those people who live right next door to you, if they are not safe, if they are not free, if they don’t have a basic, decent life, sooner or later they’re going to fuck with you, and they’re gonna mean that you can’t have that either. That the lives of Israeli Jews and the lives of Palestinians are inextricably intertwined. This is what Martin Luther King tried to tell white Americans about their relationship with Black Americans: that our fates were intertwined. And just because white Americans were on top at this moment, they were sitting on top of a volcano because the misery they were inflicting on Black Americans would come and reach them some form or another sooner or later. And it and it came in the most horrifying, horrifying way on Saturday.

And so, I know I’m not gonna move anybody who I would want to try to move in the Jewish community in a moment like this by talking about international law and human rights and morality as precious as those things are. So, I would simply say to them: is this the way to keep us safe? Israel goes into Gaza on the ground for days and days and days. God knows how many people die. Then what? Then what? Hamas is still gonna be there. And if Hamas weren’t there, some other group would resist, because you know what? The people who launched violent attacks at Israel in the 1950s and the 1960s and the 1970s and the 1980s, they weren’t Hamas because Hamas didn’t even exist. It’s not about Hamas. It’s about a struggle with the Palestinian people that can only be resolved when both peoples have the basic freedoms that all people deserve.

Blessed Are You God, Who Sets Captives Free

 

I actually agree with you that you don't annihilate an entire nation, but the Israeli government in this scenario cannot get away with a simple non-answer. They actually have to answer the question of what is an equitable and just response. That is the difficult question.

 

More fighting. Rockets incoming to Israel tonight... rockets outgoing from Israel to Gaza. Some lebanon rockets.

Live updates: Israel-Hamas war

 

I don't think anyone knows what they are truly capable of when it comes to violence, even less so when it comes to how you'd react to witnessing atrocities in the heat of battle committed by your people. This is why war is terrible and should be avoided at all costs.

 

I’ve had similar thoughts but I had to temper them because …who will pay to house up to 2 million people, and where? A couple hundred thousand would be a big task, but ten times that is indominatable.

 

Sounds like every justification for pursuing evil

 

Evil never truly dies, but it's threatening vehicles can definitely be neutered.

Will Israel ever have to stop defending itself? I don't think so. But you deter future attacks by intimidating and weakening your enemies. Plain and simple.

You don't negotiate with barbarians.

 

What are the options?

 

@mutz87 the other thing that complicates this is Hamas is quite open about their intentions. Should the people who elected them be held accountable? Is there bloodguilt on the heads of those who elected them?

 

Agree, but I would bet that at least ten percent would refuse to acquiesce to the terms of accepting refuge. Still an insurmountable task to house 2M people.

 

They could have, but the people of Palestine chose Hamas... and Hamas chose differently. Hamas has no interest in a two-state solution. They've made that entirely clear.

So don't play the victim when Israel takes Gaza back and destroys Hamas.

 

My thoughts as well.....a logistical nightmare. And that's not even taking into account the difficulty in discerning combatants from non combatants. Do they consider every male from 15-55 a combatant? What about women in that age range? Is it on the honor system to leave Gaza? The "plan" of allowing children and elderly to evac really doesn't really address the general population. Tough situation, you can't really just can't decide to kill every male of fighting age.

 

Fair point. I was referring to Blinken"s retracted tweets (obo Biden Admin) calling for Isrsel to suck it up and take its medicine bc... ??? ...

But you do have, point--axns > words, and he did send the GFord, and other force.

 

Hamas reportedly only won a plurality (44%) in the last election and there are supposedly factions within Hamas that doesn't support terrorism. Also, I'm not so sure that voting for Hamas means in some absolute or direct way supporting their violence (maybe it does on some level, but to ordinary Palestians, their reasoning might be very different than it looks to outsiders).

I won't pretend to have a solution. Getting at Hamas seems absurdly complicated for fairly obvious reasons. We know this from the war on terror and our own failures. Same time, long held conventions (i.e. law of war) & ethical imperatives should make folks reconsider arguments to annihilate an entire people.

 

Israel should announce over and over to the Palestinians, if you want this to end, rise up and rid yourselves of Hamas. Out them, kill them, do everything in your power to end them or suffer their chosen fate.

 

Perhaps, as has happened in two recent US elections, right at or even less than half of the voting public. Would bet that in Gaza that even a smaller percentage might have voted (or really meant how they voted due to potential personal consequences for voting differently). Sorry , can’t back this opinion up with anything but gut feeling.

 

Hezbollah is claiming the destruction of an Israeli military vehicle using guided munitions. If true, I am taking this as demonstration of their level of guidance capability