Border Wall

Been in Germany for a couple of weeks, lefties trying to twist that around are disingenuous

 

It's amazing how thick headed these people are

 

I don’t think it’s funny. You’re a racist because you are defending (albeit doing a shitty job) the exploitation of Hispanic brown workers. Are those workers making a living wage? Not even close. But they will certainly do a hard job no Caucasian is willing to do. You are making the same arguments your fellow democrats made in South Carolina in 1860 before the Republicans stepped in, kicked their ass, and put an end to your and your fellow democrats white privilege notion that you are entitled to $.39 Vidalia onion.

I suppose now you are going to claim the slaves owned by your political ancestors had a better life in South Carolina than they would have had in Africa.

you lost this argument the moment you opened your mouth.

 

OH NO YOU DIDN’T.

 

isn’t the anti defamation league just the KKK in suits?

 

Comparing immigrants to slaves? Accusing another poster of being a racist “pro-slavery” Democrat? I’m not sure we could find a more disingenuous post if we tried.

All immigrant waves started at the bottom of the totem pole, but they are FREE. That is/was true of the Cubans. Of the Irish. Of the Italians. Every prior migrant wave in this countries’ history. They risk their lives and take a perilous journey to get here, BY CHOICE. Entirely the opposite scenario from African slave trade where the start of their journey was being kidnapped, chained, and forced into the hold of a slave ship like livestock.

Are some being “exploited”? Absolutely. This occurs because our country has utterly failed at lining this immigration wave up with a guest worker program, thus creating a “black market” for labor. Black markets and exploitations/criminal gangs happen when governments try to arbitrarily make things “illegal”. It happened with prohibition of alcohol. It happens to this day with the ill conceived “war on drugs”. All of it results in exploitation and violence.

Know how we can stop those black markets? By letting freedom ring. Let the free markets work. There should be no such thing as “illegal workers”. If you think it’s the democrats being racist, maybe we should do a roll call as to who is in favor of broad immigration reform and guest workers? I know it isn’t the dems pushing the “replacement theory” trash and trying to intentionally make people fearful of immigrants.

 

Too much Elon rots the brain.

 

you need to be better informed. In the last few days alone, several Democrats have made comments on how the United States, through their current policies, are forcing immigrants to leave their country, and make a perilous journey into the United States. These Democrats are demanding that US funds be used to prop up failing governments in central and south America. there is your force and coercion. Now you have posters on here, all of them Democrats, claiming that failing to allow these coerced immigrants into our country to pick our onions will cause inflation on onions. if that doesn’t sound similar to slavery, then I don’t know what does. Those are economic shackles.

you can bring up 1 million examples of prior forms of slavery, exploitation, blah blah, blah, blah blah, but that has nothing to do with what I said. You don’t get to exploit people just because your father or grandfather exploited people. That is such a specious argument.

 

LOL, sure sounds like that's the prevailing lefty view on immigration...cheap labor and inexpensive produce.

 

The word is called nuance. Our policies for generations have had some deleterious effects on C. and s. American countries. As a result, certain countries have struggled economically, and their citizens struggle to be able to eek out a living and provide for their families. This causes desperation, which often leads to migration from the economically depressed areas to areas of opportunity. The US is such a place.

We've help create the mess with our policies with our neighbors to the south. We also are in the position to need immigrant labor. It doesn't have to come from other countries in the Americas, but their supply is the closest.

Long term, if we want to fix the problem of undocumented immigrants coming to our Southern border, the only way to do that is fix their country of origin so they have no desperate desire to leave. Easier aid than done. Yes, this would create a potential labor shortage problem here, but plenty of people would come here to work from around the globe if they could.

As for exploitation, we've allowed that by allowing the 8 million undocumented to work without protection. Legalize them and then they could raise the red flag. But this problem isn't that widespread. Markets, even black ones, are subject to labor forces. And the average migrant worker in the country makes close to $17/hr, with ones in CA making over $19/hr. They are also free to come and go. Tell me Austin how this is like slavery?

Oh, and when we do legalize the labor, like with DACA, these immigrants thrive economically. A recent academic study shows ending DACA now would cost the economy $215 billion to the GDP and billions in tax receipts.

 

Who said that I hate them? DeSantis wasn't lying. He was presenting the sanctuary city pitch to people who crossed the border. They signed waivers and they looked more than happy to be going where they were going.

I think people fleeing socialist dictators due to political persecution generally have valid asylum claims.

You act like all 2,000 miles are high traffic areas. Most of that space is not used for border crossings, but that would likely change if we only selectively built barriers in high traffic areas. Plug a hole somewhere, people find another route, which is why a bigger wall would likely be necessary. Not necessarily the full 2,000 miles... but pretty big.

I think you're asking the wrong questions. Surveillance and sensors over that distance is indeed costly, but it's particularly costly before it is implemented. Once it's implemented, it would only need to be maintained. Our interstate highway system is more burdensome than that and nobody bats an eye over it.

I never said that the border crisis would be fixed with a wall. That's not exactly a fair standard. The question is if it's a step in the right direction. Your solution seems to be incentivize border crossings via sanctuary cities, welfare, and jobs, then do nothing to secure the border.

 

If "your window" here is a metaphor for "the border," I think that's pretty draconian. We shouldn't go that far.

You're right people should knock and wait for an invitation. But you don't shoot people who don't. We need to be better than that.

This is not an Israel-Palestine situation.

 

You're right about that. This will likely always be a problem, we can just take measures to mitigate the problem via policy.

 

At what size exactly does the wall go from "clearly necessary" to "symbol of bigotry?"

Sounds an awful lot like hackery and grandstanding to me.

 

I never said that.

 

Could you show your work on that?

How does telling people who are already here they can stay here while giving them jobs disincentivize people crossing the border for economic opportunity?

I guess what you're saying is technically true if people can cross the border however and whenever they want, but that's kind of ignoring the elephant in the room. It leaves the US government without any real control over the situation.

 

I don't care about what the ADL has to say. Trump says a lot of bad things.

 

ok. Well, I suggest you don’t come over and try to break in through a window in my house. I don’t let uninvited strangers in.

as for our borders, if you don’t protect them, we don’t have them. Gunfire is one of the best deterrents known to mankind. I find it ironic that most of the Democrats want to give the Ukrainians bullets and guns and billions of dollars to defend their border, but they’re offended when Americans want to do the same for their own border. It’s rather naïve to think that an invader in a tank is any different than an invader on foot. They are both invaders destroying the sovereignty of a neighboring country.

 

It’s not “a view”, it’s the present reality of the situation. Most workers in ag and construction are migrants. At this point our economy actually relies on this labor force. That’s a fact. Their presence doesn’t mean they are necessarily being “exploited”, not unless they are being forced into labor or are being paid terribly below minimum wage. I think the vast majority are here by choice, either fleeing cartel violence or escaping corrupt dictatorship. Getting paid decent wages in cash, “illegal” as it may be, beats the hell out of the conditions back home.

If we had a more comprehensive guest/migrant worker system vast numbers of these workers would be “on the books”. They would he paying taxes. Know what else that would accomplish? It narrows the field of those underpaying these workers or exploiting/trafficking them. These migrants might then even be able to file complaints without fear, at least against the bad actors on the U.S. side of the border. If the concern was actually for their human rights and dignity, I don’t think certain posters would be ludicrously comparing them to slaves (of course that poster already gave himself as not being serious with the suggestion of executing migrants…pretty much channeling WWHD).

 

Posted this before, here it is again:
Trump was not completely off base about the realities of over immigration.

As the world continues to struggle economically, politically and with Climate Change issues people will seek relief, especially from the hyper corrupt Govts of S America.

People need to eat. It's so bad down there people trust murdering drug cartels more than their own Govts.

So they come N seeking relief.

The issue, IMO is oversaturation.

How many can the US absorb before its a negative sum for US society?

Trump of course was using the issue for his narcissistic personal agenda and using fear of "The Other" to prompt his base. Certainly not for the good of society.

I suspect eventually the US will be forced into more and more draconian measures going forward.