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  1. Hi there... Can you please quickly check to make sure your email address is up to date here? Just in case we need to reach out to you or you lose your password. Muchero thanks!

Montana climate lawsuit claims a victory

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PacificBlueGator, Aug 21, 2023.

  1. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    Encouraging news, the judge ruled in favor of the young climate activists lawsuit against the state in failing to consider alternatives to fossil fuels, thus constitutionally not protecting Montanans from the devastation caused by climate change.

    https://www.npr.org/2023/08/14/1193780700/montana-climate-change-trial-ruling
    No doubt appeals to come from the FF industry, though this may be a model for changing the equation to fight climate change at the govt level.
     
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  2. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    Lol... that judge won't last long in Montana. :rolleyes:

    He's purely political becasue he can't dictate behavior nor dictate what fuels the state can use. Why the hail does that judge think that office has power over the state... to dictate "behavior" of the state officials with concerns about energy?

    Constitutional right to clean air? LMFAO! Yeah, we have a Constitutional right to a sovereign nation with boarders too.

    Kathy is going down...
     
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  3. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    So,
    Just FYI the judge is a she, not sure who you are referring to? It's our democratic system of justice that is in your way here. Plaintiffs bring a lawsuit and Defendants need to justify their actions. The State did not consider alternative fuels in their projects and as was pointed out in trial are economically beneficial and technically feasible. The young will be the most impacted by climate change, and they made their case. Good for them.
     
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  4. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    I said "Kathy" is going down. So, yeah, that a woman's name... I say the state should use the least expensive... most abundant... domestic energy... In the end I am still for all of the above energy... within price considerations. People are sick and tired of the inflation all across our country and the last thing they need is more expensive energy that is NOT even dependable... reliable.

    But yes, if they can find cheaper alternatives then they should go for it.

    In the end Judge Kathy thinks she can play Governor... The legislature, the regulators, she thinks she is legally allowed and invent laws and regulations...
     
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  5. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    Among religions - and climate change is a religion - the churches don’t require trillions to run themselves. And neither do they require the force of law to fill their pews.
     
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  6. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    And agree, they should be able to weigh options and that's the point of the lawsuit - the State was not allowed to consider alternatives to fossil fuels for projects. If there are better alternatives, from multiple perspectives, cost, environmental impact, health, infrastructure, the State is constitutionally required to consider those factors in their decisions.
     
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  7. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    I agree with this... States should try to find a reasonable middle ground on all of this. But she is acting like she alone has the power to run the state though lawsuits. That's not how state governments work. She is attempting to invent law where no law exists.
     
  8. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    Going after some windmills there, viruses don't exist and climate change is religion. Considering a name change to Don Quixote Dad?
    I don't think she is trying to run govt, rather enforcing what the State is constitutionally required to do, and they weren't. The State could have given good rationale for why they would only consider FF, but from interviews of people who watched this trial closely, their arguments were not convincing. The ruling may not make a difference because it is still up to a climate change-denying majority legislature to revise the policy, and my guess is that they will continue to find loopholes.
     
  9. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    I'd love to see that law, can you find it and post it.

    Right now people are dealing with massive runaway inflation and the last thing they need is more expensive power that IS NOT RELIABLE. I am for all of the above with regard to energy, but they should not put all their eggs in one basket, so to speak.

    As for the climate change denying majority, I think reforestation is far more dangerous for our ecology than CO2. Besides that if the CRIBS nations are not reducing their CO2 emissions then nothing one state does will change a thing.

    Stop the plastic pollution and the deforestation. That is something that I would fully support.
     
  10. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    Well, I'm not a lawyer, but this is the link to the section in the state constitution which deals with the case

    the Montana Constitution, Article IX, Section 1. Protection and improvement., which goes on to describe the following:

    Constitution of Montana -- Article IX -- ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES
    Section 1. Protection and improvement. (1) The state and each person shall maintain and improve a clean and healthful environment in Montana for present and future generations.
    (2) The legislature shall provide for the administration and enforcement of this duty.
    (3) The legislature shall provide adequate remedies for the protection of the environmental life support system from degradation and provide adequate remedies to prevent unreasonable depletion and degradation of natural resources.

    I also agree on deforestation, we watching as the Amazon disappears along with many species we may never know exist. But to use the argument, which the State tried unsuccessfully, that a state can't make a difference in the bigger picture of climate change, would mean we just live in the land of self-defeat. Significant changes start with grass roots.
     
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  11. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    I found this in their state laws... It is quite lengthy. They might have to amend their laws..



    75-2-301. Local air pollution control programs -- consistency with state and federal regulations -- procedure for public notice and comment required, MCA

    That above was found in this...

    TITLE 75. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION - Table of Contents, MCA
     
  12. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    Thanks, not a thorough read, but consistently the environmental impacts of systems on air and water quality is required by law. The absence of environmental impact in the State policies was a key finding in the trial. I think anytime there is a super majority of one party, the risk of making short cuts for ideological positions creates potential abuse, as in this case.
     
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  13. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    I wonder is this will change anyone's perception of this subject here. I knew this was BS all along and now these climate scientist are speaking out with one voice about the facts. I wonder if people here will "follow the science" when the science is NOT on their side... Lol.



    More than 1,600 scientists, including two Nobel laureates, declare climate 'emergency' a myth


    A coalition of 1,609 scientists from around the world have signed a declaration stating “there is no climate emergency” and that they “strongly oppose the harmful and unrealistic net-zero CO2 policy” being pushed across the globe. The declaration does not deny the harmful effect of greenhouse gasses, but instead challenges the hysteria brought about by the narrative of imminent doom.

    The declaration, put together by the Global Climate Intelligence Group (CLINTEL), was made public this month and urges that “Climate science should be less political, while climate policies should be more scientific.”

    CLINTEL is an independent foundation that operates in the fields of climate change and climate policy. CLINTEL was founded in 2019 by emeritus professor of geophysics Guus Berkhout and science journalist Marcel Crok.

    The underlying report that engendered the declaration lays out a series of statements challenging many of the common climate claims. For example, one of the most common claims – and repeated without question by many – is that the earth will soon pass "tipping points that will lead to catastrophic environmental damage, including dangerous sea level rise, entire species going extinct, and even greater suffering in many nations, especially the poorest."

    More than 1,600 scientists, including two Nobel laureates, declare climate 'emergency' a myth
     
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  14. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    This is Gatorrick22's group of "climate scientists" speaking out with "one voice" of bullshit. How typical.
    A 0.37 second search:
    Pseudo-Science Group Launches Misinformation Campaign To Oppose Climate Action
     
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  15. PacificBlueGator

    PacificBlueGator All American

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    Reviewing the list of signatories reveals a small number who are climate scientists and several with ties to the fossil fuel industry, from which the group may be funded.

    OTOH, analyses of climate studies and scientists indicate that today, there is a near 99% consensus of studies that believe humans are responsible for climate change by burning FF. iopscience.iop.org

    Abstract While controls over the Earth’s climate system have undergone rigorous hypothesis-testing since the 1800s, questions over the scientific consensus of the role of human activities in modern climate change continue to arise in public settings. We update previous efforts to quantify the scientific consensus on climate change by searching the recent literature for papers sceptical of anthropogenic-caused global warming. From a dataset of 88125 climate-related papers published since 2012, when this question was last addressed comprehensively, we examine a randomized subset of 3000 such publications. We also use a second sample-weighted approach that was specifically biased with keywords to help identify any sceptical peer-reviewed papers in the whole dataset. We identify four sceptical papers out of the sub-set of 3000, as evidenced by abstracts that were rated as implicitly or explicitly sceptical of human-caused global warming. In our sample utilizing pre-identified sceptical keywords we found 28 papers that were implicitly or explicitly sceptical. We conclude with high statistical confidence that the scientific consensus on human-caused contemporary climate change—expressed as a proportion of the total publications—exceeds 99% in the peer reviewed scientific literature.
     
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  16. Gatorrick22

    Gatorrick22 GC Hall of Fame

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    I believe deforestation is the biggest threat to our climate, and plastic in the oceans is a strong second place contributor. Trees are our natural CO2 filters, and the trees are disappearing at an alarming rate. Water pollution is also harming the environment and may change ocean currents which will also change weather patterns and eventually climate.
     
  17. GatorJMDZ

    GatorJMDZ gatorjack VIP Member

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    I think you're supposed to argue the US has too many "boarders."
     
  18. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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