Authority lost

I group everyone together.

 

Careful...there are many here who only rely on what they are told as long as "THEY" say "peer reviewed"/"cdc"/"fda"/"pfizer"/"moderna"/"ect"...

 

They are still attacked today. Nothing has changed. The race baiting narrative never changes, no matter how many facts come to the surface.

 

I think it was a lab accident and was not intentional. The initial cover up was definitely intentional. There were lab accidents regarding SARS and China covered it up. So this is nothing new

SARS escaped Beijing lab twice

 

What kind of accident do you think it was? Do you think it was man made and accident my released? Do you think it was a natural disease that was stored and accident my released? What evidence can you cite to support your theories?

 

It's just a theory based on what has happened in the past. I have no concrete evidence, but I know lab accidents happen every year and sometimes in the US. Like the one a couple years ago that happened at the UNC viral lab. Man made or natural? I am not sure if it really matters. Virus labs alter viruses with no malicious intent

 

A lot was learned when a researcher was able to hack into the secretive Chinese computer systems that included the Wuhan lab info. I think this was in 2021.

The virus itself was not man-made. Two guano-collectors (yes, that's a thing in China) in Yunnan province got sick from the bats, and China sent scientists from the Wuhan lab to investigate and bring the virus back. Then the lab made a mistake and downgraded the hazard of the virus, allowing their Level-2 scientists (low security protocols for less dangerous viruses) to handle it instead of their Level-4 scientists (high security protocols for more dangerous viruses). (The U.S. CDC gave very poor marks for the professionalism of the Wuhan Level-2 scientists in the year before the incident, basically saying that they were incompetent clowns and a disaster waiting to happen.) One of the things that scientists do when studying a virus is to modify it to see what could happen and figure out how to defeat it. Apparently, this is when the virus was accidentally released, possibly from a scientist directly to employees of the wet market near the Wuhan Lab.

I think the response of the Chinese government supports this idea. They did everything they could to deny that the virus was contagious, to deny that it came from the lab, and deny that it came from China at all, jumping on a hair-brained theory that a U.S. woman in the military smuggled it into China during a sports competition, or it came to China in boxes of Maine lobster. These desperate denials would not really be necessary if the virus came from the wet market, because that would not reflect as badly on the Chinese government compared to an incompetent gov't lab being responsible for releasing the virus.

 

^^ bait

 

He should write the FBI and ask them what evidence they have that it was a lab leak.

And you are absolutely correct. It has always been my stance that it was likely a lab leak, but that it wasn’t intentional. As you said, happens often enough to be very plausible. Especially given all of the other “coincidences” that would have had to occur for it not to be a lab leak.

 

I’ve not heard any of this, thought not specifically denying it. I’m not sure how that explicitly related to a lab leak.

I have read/heard the level 2 safety issue from the 2 authors from the OP before. I don’t doubt it. But that in itself isn’t evidence that there was a lab leak. To be clear, given the conditions a lab leak was entirely plausible. However, given the specific evidence that we currently have, it is highly unlikely in this case.

One- again, the Chinese response in itself is not hard evidence. It is kind of a smoke/fire type assumption, but from a scientific perspective it is t really evidence.

two- I disagree, from the Chinese perspective a wet market caused origin is as bad as a lab leak. They emphatically deny that live animals were being sold at the market, even though there is ample evidence there were. They had put in place laws against it that clearly were not enforced. To the Chinese, this makes them look weak and not able to enforce their laws. If they didn’t care they wouldn’t deny that animal were being sold in the wet market.

Also, it didn’t help when Trump started blaming it on the Chinese and called it the “China Virus”. Then the Chinese responded with their own lame and bogus propaganda.

These are the things that are hard to get past - supporting wet market theory and not lab leak

1. Almost all of the initial cases were around the wet market area. None were near the lab. The lab is like 35 miles away from the wet market. The wet market is not necessarily the busiest place in Wuhan either. So how did a lab leak cause an outbreak 35 miles away, right by a wet market?

2. Apparently there were initially 2 strains in Wuhan. Listening to virologists it is far more likely given that it would have come from natural origin, vs the lab accidently leaking 2 different strains, and both infections spreading.

3. Listening to virologists who were working directly on the issue at the time, in terms of the virus being man made (which is not what you are saying) the way the virus was constructed as not at all a way one would typically engineer such a virus if they were doing so.

4. They had fairly recent listings of the coronaviruses that were kept and logged at the lab. All but one were of the SARS 1 type variety, and the only one that wasn’t in no way resembled Covid 19 strains.

5. Swabs were done in the wet market shortly after they outbreak and they did find samples that contained both mammals that could carry the virus (like raccoon dogs) and sars Covid 19. That doesn’t prove that one caused the other, but it does suggest the conditions were present.

6. Listening to virologists, they all seem to think that it is highly unlikely given the above that it was man made. So you can either trust the people who are most knowledgeable or decide that all the experts are lying in a conspiracy to cover it up. I tend to go with the more obvious answer, not conspiracies.

 

Accidents do happen but a lot of things have to fall into place for that to translate into a pandemic. There have been times a couple of times in the past humans have contributed to a pandemic but I don’t think any instances where lab type accidents started one (I may be wrong here)

 

You sure this attack you write about was over the lab leak not even being possible? Couldn't it have been that proponents of the lab leak theory treated the theory as fact before they had conclusive evidence?

Over 3.5 years & running and we still don't know the origin, and it's quite possible that we'll never know.

 

Here’s another article on the issue from Science that isn’t paywalled. I can’t read the WSJ article, but the tone here seems to differ from Ridley and Chan’s.

https://www.science.org/content/art...eged-nih-cover-up-using-covid-19-origin-paper

 

As I said. There were those who treated the lab leak as 100% fact and those that stated that it was possible (with varying degrees of likelihood). They were all attacked as if they were the saying the same thing.

 

Why not? If the virus was manmade, then we can feel assured that it won't happen again. If not, then I could see the next Pandemic doing far greater harm. Keep an eye on the bird flu folks, because this one is almost ready ready to jump species and when it does, it'll make Covid look like a sneeze. You thought 2% mortality was bad, wait until you see 50%.

 

Have any evidence of people just “honestly discussing” faced this sort of banning or blowback?

I recall plenty of people claiming they were banned by twitter. I don’t doubt this happened, but I wonder how many were banned for having discussions or stating opinions in their own words? Thing is the likes of Twitter and Facebook don’t have people actually sitting there reading random Joe Citizens posts. They moderate via algorithm. So the reality is if some “regular” person got caught up in such a banning, they quite likely interacted with or retweeted something from a bot and the algorithm recognized them as a possible bot based on posting patterns.

 

Apparently FBI Director, Christopher Wray is not sane.

FBI chief Christopher Wray says China lab leak most likely

You seem to be invoking one of the cardinal rules of Too Hot: “all sane people will think like me.” However, it does not follow logically that a sane person will automatically choose natural origin.

Imagine stopping people on the street and telling them we know for certain that SARS-CoV-2 originated in Wuhan, China, and that there are two options on its origin: 1) it just happened to jump from animals to human in a wet market located in that city, or 2) it originated from the Institute of Virology, which has been studying coronaviruses in bats for over a decade, also located in that city. I don’t think all the sane people would always take the first option.

You only present two possibilities: natural origin or intentionally leaked from the lab. What you’re not considering is accidental leak from the lab.

It’s interesting that out of 39,397 wet markets in China, the virus jumped from animals to humans in the one wet market located in the same city as the Institute of Virology, again which has specifically been studying coronaviruses in bats for a decade.

I don’t know how the virus originated and I don’t think about it much. What bothers me more is that China covered up existence of Covid when it was first discovered. Not only did they ignore the doctors who first pointed it out, they punished those doctors. It seems that saving face was far more important than public health to the arrogant Chinese government.

 

China wanted to damage the world! And they did! Even if they damaged themselves worse! That’s what makes it so nefarious! Despite my sarcasm, I think a lab leak was the most likely cause. But, it doesn’t matter. What matters is what happened. And we need to secure labs better in the future

 

No. Ironically you are committing the cardinal sin of too hot. You are changing my argument so you can debate what you want.

I was specific about the nonsense claims being championed by nuts and I was specific about being ok if you want to think a lab leak is possible. The nuts are sure it happened via leak, sure Fauci funded it, and pretty sure it was purposeful.

 

I’m trying to tell you people that the ‘virus’ escaped because somebody left the back door open after the Uber Eats guy delivered.