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  1. Hi there... Can you please quickly check to make sure your email address is up to date here? Just in case we need to reach out to you or you lose your password. Muchero thanks!

Legalized judicial racism…

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by UFLawyer, Jul 10, 2023.

  1. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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  2. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    Yes

    Not sure how you can make your argument when it is obvious and direct contradiction to the factual understanding about bias. I suspect it stems in part because you're confusing bias with crime.

    Yes

    Replicability and Reproducability That feature is not just a positive aspect of science, it is central to the entire endeavor. Occurs in multiple situations using same data and methods to produce the same results. Or in studying the same phenomenon under varied circumstances/time/location etc. to check for same, similar or dissimilar outcomes.

    Part and parcel to the research endeavor.

    One example from criminal justice: Minneapolis Domestic Violence Experiment (Sherman & Berk 1984).

    Sherman & Berk found that arrest reduced the likelihood of reoffending. These findings subsequently helped support the movement toward mandatory arrest for DV. Problem was, several other replication studies were done in subsequent years (more now) finding mixed or contradictory results. This is how science testing works.

    Point is, unique crime data, just as unique data in other disciplines is generally a positive thing and central to science.
     
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  3. murphree_hall

    murphree_hall VIP Member

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    Interestingly, it wasn’t in Aldean’s video, but they should try it in a small town :emoji_eyes:

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    Sorry- nope on the theory of random bias. Bias requires thought, akin to intent. It is a state of mind, unless we include instinct into the definition. I think one could reasonably argue that instinct is a type of bias, especially in the animal kingdom. A female lion shows bias towards the strong male, as a way of perpetuating the species. But that instinct, ingrained in DNA, is still a mental exercise.

    on your second point, we are talking apples and oranges. I am just saying you can’t get sufficient, accurate data from the cjs to reach a global opinion on bias. Running more tests on flawed/incomplete data does not make the findings more viable.

    It seems we have narrowed our differences down to these two points. We appear to agree on most other related points. Not bad. Well done.

    these are just opinions, but a civil discussion is refreshing. LOL.
     
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  5. WESGATORS

    WESGATORS Moderator VIP Member

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    If we consider "instinct" to be all the thoughts that we have that are not intentional, what would be the reason for not including "instinct" in the scope of "bias?" It's these unintentional thoughts that are perhaps harder to measure and correct (where corrections are objectively warranted).

    Go GATORS!
    ,WESGATORS
     
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  6. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    I originally used the term mens rea, which does not technically mean just “intent”. I just didn’t correct mutz87. Maybe the better term is “knowingly” or “with thought”. Instinct is still “with thought” but it’s more engrained than through analysis. For me, I think of bias as the”why” did you choose to act that way.
     
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  7. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    Again, you're trying to conflate bias with intent. Bias does not require intent or even awareness of them, i.e. intent is not a precondition for bias as it is for a behavior to be a crime.

    Honest question, have you read any studies on bias in cj in which you can make this broad claim?
     
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  8. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    We differ on our definition of the term bias. By textbook definition, bias is reflected in a choice. You favor one thing over another. I don’t think there can be a bias absent a choice. Choice is decision, usually based upon knowledge or perhaps blindly (random) like pulling a name out of a hat. That is how I see it. I don’t claim bias intent. That was your interpretation of mens rea. I equate it with “knowingly”. There is a difference.

    yes, I have read several papers on bias in the judicial system. Years ago. I thought they were naive and created to pursue a political agenda.
     
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  9. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    If we differ on the term bias, then one of us is wrong...and that one of us isn't me. :)

    For instance, if a judge consistently sentences men to longer prison sentences vs women, all else equal, for the same crime that would be a form of bias. The judge need not be aware of or intend the bias for this tendency to be biased.
     
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  10. Orange_and_Bluke

    Orange_and_Bluke Premium Member

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    Are you aware that your bias has taken you to 20 plus years of passion and effort to show an outcome that you already believe.
     
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  11. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    Well you're suggesting that I am trying to find bias where it doesn't exist, as opposed to not being able to ignore bias that is unignorable.

    It's strange to me how you take issue with calling out biases when you clearly believe that they exist. If that's the case, then how am I wrong other than, perhaps, because it triggers discomfort in having the status quo challenged?
     
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  12. Orange_and_Bluke

    Orange_and_Bluke Premium Member

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    How do you know I find discomfort in your bias? Interesting that you say so.
    Every single human possesses parts of themselves that they’re unaware of.
    Also…How many of your GAs ever leaned right? Does your wife lean right or left?
    My guess is you are living in a world, created by you and your biases, that mostly tilts to the left.
    It’s no surprise therefore that you’ve chosen industry that proves your notions and worldview correct.
    People like you will always exist and that doesn’t bother me. It fascinates me.
     
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  13. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    nope. Bias doesn’t become bias just because you detect a pattern. Bias is the “why” there is a pattern. The problem is the premise of your question is erroneous. Virtually no two crimes are identical. Facts are always different, and the facts are part of the formula to determine the penalty.
     
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  14. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    that’s a good point.
     
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  15. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    "Bias doesn't become bias just because you detect a pattern" is not an argument that I made. The hypothetical example was to show how bias can occur--and how it doesn't require a judge to be aware of it.

    Though I'd agree "bias is why there is a pattern." With data and controlled measurement, we can and have detected those patterns and it's why we can say there is systemic bias in the criminal justice system.

    Also, let's accurately remember that you've tried in multiple posts to argue that bias requires intent, something akin to intent, and now choice. But the fact is, none of them are true.

    Leaving aside the first two since I already addressed why they're mistaken, wrt choice, this too is wrong because while bias is a choice per se, it need not be a conscious or deliberate...though it can be.
     
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  16. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

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    What if the studio picked the location, drummed up the controversy, and made this song the most discussed song of the year, simply to sell albums?

    Sounds vaguely familiar.

    Create a problem, create the solution, create wealth from the dumb sheep.
     
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  17. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    so ….part of the problem here is (1) I used mens rea originally, not intent. (2) the term intent does not have a singular definition/meaning…especially in the law. I can see a crowd of people, and point, aim and shoot a gun at Paul McCartney standing in the crowd, killing him. That is mens rea. I can point the gun in the general direction of the 5 Beatles, in the crowd, and hope and hit one of them. That is mens rea. I can stand further back and just point the gun into the crowd hoping I hit someone. That is mens rea. Or, I can stand even further back, where I can’t see anybody in the crowd, and just shoot the gun in the general direction, and I could hit somebody in the crowd, killing them come on. That is mens rea.

    the point is..intent is a spectrum in the law. So I think I made my point clearly and early in our discussion. Bias requires a guilty state of mind. Bias, by definition, is making a choice (or having a preference) typically based upon prejudice. If I offer you a lollipop and I only have cherry flavor (which you accept), I can’t extrapolate from that interaction that you are biased against Grape or any other flavor. Why, because you did not make a choice.
     
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  18. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    I know what mens rea is & I understand the subtle differences, including as translated from latin guilty mind. But again, mens rea is only applicable in a legal context as one of the two elements establishing a crime.

    Bias is a social-psychological and behavioral phenomenon and needs to be understood through this context. It has never been the case that bias requires intent or guilty mind or even a conscious choice.

    Same time, bias can be intentional--it just doesn't need to be.
     
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  19. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    Men's rea is not just a legal term.

    How can their be bias without a choice. If our planet was inhabited by 100% white folks...could white supremacist exist?
     
  20. mutz87

    mutz87 p=.06

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    Sure, but mens rea is not a term that is used in the social sciences to define bias.

    Good question. There is in a sense choice, but bias can happen without us realizing it, so it's not a conscious or deliberate choice. This is part of what I was alluding to with the earlier sentencing bias example, i.e. judges can be biased across cases but not realize it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2023