New Florida curriculum says slavery had “personal benefits” for slaves

Smart and govt worker. Oxymoronic.

 

I'm going to give you a presumption of good faith here and assume we're talking past each other. Hopefully, I won't regret it. I will do my best to explain why there is such strong disagreement with the stance you are taking.

First things first, nobody in this thread is arguing this: "classic case of this would be notion that we're just as racist now as we were in 1865, or that Blacks made no progress between 1865 and 1964, or that slavery was unique to the US." So we can all agree that none of this is true and get to the actual points of contention.

Now, getting to the points of contention, nobody is arguing this either: "You can't suggest that Blacks built the American infrastructure and economy while simultaneously suggesting that they possessed zero marketable skills post-emancipation." There is not a person here who said that formerly enslaved persons had no skills whatsoever. That would be very historically inaccurate. Enslaved persons were valued specifically for their skills.

Where people have disagreed with you is this statement: "If it was characterized as something along the lines of 'the skills that Blacks developed during slavery helped them assimilate to post-slavery society more quickly,' then I don't really take issue with that."

Let's be clear on what the disagreement is. The disagreement is not with the idea formerly enslaved persons left slavery with a skill or some skills. The disagreement is with the idea that slavery helped formerly enslaved persons develop skills that allowed them to assimilate into post-slavery society more quickly. Let's be clear on what I mean by that. We disagree because slavery denied enslaved persons the sort of well-rounded skillsets, money, and assets (i.e., land) that would have allowed them to thrive after emancipation.

Instead, due to slavery, many formerly enslaved persons ended up with no education, no literacy, no money or very little money, very little in the way of assets, and a very limited skillset. Due to those combination of things, many of these formerly enslaved people became ensnared in systems in the South that relegated them to working for their former slaveowners and overseers (or somebody else's former slaveowner and overseer) in the same sort of role as they had during slavery with limited or no ability to leave and stuck in poverty. That is why I recommended the documentary that explored how this system came about and persisted for so long.

Certainly, some formerly enslaved persons overcame this and became successful. We should celebrate them. But we should not celebrate them as if the exceptions were the rule. We should be honest about what happened to so many formerly enslaved people and how our society treated them. We should be honest about how our society put them in that position and the effects it has had. We can and should do all of it.

The reason people are so forcefully pushing back on you is because you appear to want to look only on the bright side here. And that does not do anybody any good. Looking at the skills formerly enslaved people had without looking at everything taken from them and the effects that had on Black people during Reconstruction and Jim Crow is just whitewashing our sins as a country. I hope we are now no longer talking past each other.

 

So you are proving that slave masters could have been paying them as free will employees, free to come and go and live normal lives, the whole time? Seems like that sort of system ... the one we still use in America today ... would have been, you know ... more beneficial to black people than slavery. The Florida Lesson plan is like asking kids, "what's the upside to 9/11"? I mean, tazer stock went up a lot after 9/11, so there's that.

 

So, slavery lasted about 100 years in the US (i'm ignoring pre country status). I don't know what % of slaves would've been taught these beneficial skills. I assume a pretty small %. I guess the vast majority of people enslaved, died as a slave. Hence, for these skills to have much benefit a slave would 1. have to have been taught them (small % I'd guess) & 2. been in the 15-40 yo range in 1865 (small %). So, in the big scheme of things, it seems a tiny % would be in this group. I assume there are some estimates out there for this math to be done. Sounds like a tiny tail waggin a big ole dog.

As of 1850, the avg life expectancy of a slave in the US was 22.

Slave health on plantations in the United States - Wikipedia.

 

Do you really want me to respond or would that be “unnecessarily antagonistic?”

 

Yeah, the “could be applied for their personal benefit” is cringey. I’m not sure why that would be relevant curriculum.

 

I'd love to hear your take on America's treatment of the Holocaust. Do you criticize Jews for playing the "victim" card.

 

This has been a busy thread and contentious as usual. Apparently some of you are incapable of discussing or debating issues sans insults or making subtle ugly insinuations. One poster complains about another insulting him, then continues to mock or make his or her own insults.

It's apparent there is some confusion over the 'legality' of calling another a poster a liar, or accuse him or her of lying. And there are the usual complaints over moderation. Some of you have your favorites. I suppose you view some of us as more biased? towards one side or another and more likely to favorably moderate posts in line with said bias.

If so, you would be disappointed. Though the moderation can at times be uneven, it is not biased. River moderates as fair as any of us. Moderators are not always online. On occasion posts may be unintentionally overlooked. We moderate because we once enjoyed the forum when people participated to learn from knowledgable posters who add content of value to the subject discussed and exchange constructive ideas, not insult their political opposites to add points to 'their side'. Posts with insults may be missed, overlooked. It is a volunteer job and we do it because it needs to be done when cooling water needs to be thrown on flaming egoes.

It appears there are some terms needing to be discussed and a consensus established. Until that can be accomplished I would ask you consider what was previously posted in another thread when the usual suspects clashed. Be respectful and kind to one another. More is always accomplished that way.

Is Ron Desantis Racist?

It's quite clear, but as usual there are those who push the aggravation envelope with their "opinions."

A notice: There is an agreement among Too Hot Mods that "calling someone a racist or a bigot or an idiot or senile ... is an opinion. You're allowed to express those opinions about politicians. You are not allowed to express those about other posters, otherwise the board degenerates into nothing but name-calling." (Page 10 post #198)

I am adding to that list Liar, jerk, jackass, and other insulting terms some of you can't seem to resist. I don't have River's stretched thin patience.
If the insults continue this thread will be closed.

Is Ron Desantis Racist?

 

My two cents: if you eliminate posters calling other posters the “r word”, then the rule should extend to public figures and politicians as well. The inevitability of a thread such as “Is Ron DeSantis racist?” is that the first person who comes to Ron’s defense will be labeled as racist as well. Perhaps not in explicit terms, but the conversation always takes a nosedive when race baiting is involved. Nobody knows what’s in Ron’s heart, so it’s a pointless endeavor to begin with. I’m generally a free speech guy, but if you’re going to ban calling other posters racist, why should that not extend to public figures as well? It’s such a weak tactic, I agree.

 

I didn't even see this until somebody posted it on Twitter. Thomas Sowell and Shelby Steele? What? LOL.

 

In your head, in your head
Zombie, zombie, zombie-ie-ie
What's in your head, in your head?
Zombie, zombie, zombie-ie-ie-ie, oh

Should not surprise anyone why a dangerously wide swath of the US pop continues to intellectually disintegrate and lose its grip on reality.

..and we all suffer for it.

 

Such an incredible song. RIP, Dolores.

 

Maybe next time you should say our local libbies have a history of stretching the truth and it's on display with their false comments.

 

He's actually just making it easy for you to understand, some of you guys and gals or whatever you identify as need the extra help .

 

Mutz!
and The Cranberries. Awesome

 

How you respond is up to you. It'd be far better if you did it politely, of course, without accusing others.
Since you were quoting me at the time, perhaps you can point to where I said or implied anything close to this:

If you can't do that, perhaps you can point to another specific post where someone said that.
thanks

 

DO is a much missed voice. Just seems so appropriate.

Every so often some form of slavery justification/benefits of slavery for the enslaved unfortunately makes its way into the public discourse. Same ole historically ignorant and logically vacuous ideas in their heads that just won't die.

 

Great thread. That's even more detail. And I would suggest there's an ideological predisposition towards focusing critical thinking on opportunity cost in economic issues but being very superficial on historical race issues. Focusing on opportunity cost is proper, but as a point of heavy emphasis for young kids, is more likely a jumping off point to begin setting up a framework to later delegitimize economic regulation

 

No one on the right cares. It’s confounding to see how dumb they want to make Americans.

Asians, Indians, and Nigerians scavenge to buy books for their children to read by candle light whilst Americans scroll past the graveyard on TikTok.

 

what's in his heart?? omg