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  1. Hi there... Can you please quickly check to make sure your email address is up to date here? Just in case we need to reach out to you or you lose your password. Muchero thanks!

Legalized judicial racism…

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by UFLawyer, Jul 10, 2023.

  1. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    So if you reject the idea of sentencing disparity due to things like racism, socioeconomic status, etc you're basically making a case that certain types of people are more innately criminal based on their race or socioeconomic status, good luck with that, and you might want to get fitted for your white hood in advance.
     
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  2. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Yeah, everybody is acting in bad faith but you with your claim that everybody is acting in bad faith.
     
  3. Orange_and_Bluke

    Orange_and_Bluke Premium Member

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    What a gigantic erroneously made leap you’ve made.
    How is your groin?
     
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  4. Orange_and_Bluke

    Orange_and_Bluke Premium Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Nasty as always. If you wish to provide something other than either personal or group insults, lete know. But that seems to be what you traffic in here.
     
  6. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    Sorry you are too busy reflexively rejecting things because certain people say them to not think through the implications
     
  7. Orange_and_Bluke

    Orange_and_Bluke Premium Member

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    And you reflexively defend the criminals. Weird how you consistently worry about the authority but not the offenders.
     
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  8. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    you really need to give it a rest. You seem to once again be changing the subject matter. The original post here is about bias by the judges…not in the system itself. I made that point to you 50 post a go. You continue to move the target every time you take your weak ass shot…and miss! At this point, you are doing nothing but trolling. Chow.
     
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  9. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    What an absolute bullshit assertion. Someone doesn’t agree with you and they are in the Klan? Grow up man. That type of crap has no place here.

    There is no global sentencing disparity due to race. Period. There is no legitimate study out there which asserts this, and if they do post here so those of us who practice law can examine the data. The data to support this conclusion is unattainable. I don’t care what anyone carrying a clipboard and wearing a pocket protector claim.

    Can there be data to support bias in the system? Maybe, but that data suffers from the same deficiencies as judicial bias…. Sentencing is driven by both facts and statute. Facts which impact sentencing vary with every single criminal case. Laws differ in every jurisdiction. I agree that socioeconomic factors play a large role in incarceration, but that is not really bias, it just means that people without money turn to violent crime more often than Engineers. That is a whole different discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
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  10. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    And yet, literally in your next post, you deny that there is a "global" disparity, which is about the system and would be studied statistically. So you are jumping back and forth on that point. Try to keep your own arguments straight next time.
     
  11. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Frankly, you don't have the ability to examine the data based on your inability to read the study that was posted here. You just argued the data was flawed without even realizing that it was a meta-analysis or understanding what that means.
     
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  12. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    I'm not a stats guy by any means, but the complexity of subconscious bias seems to me to be a reason that statistical analysis is helpful. If there appears to be a 20% discrepancy in sentencing of Black men relative to White men in Federal courts, what are the odds over a large sample size that the discrepancy can be attributable to variables other than race, particularly if they've accounted for things such as score sheets and past violent crimes? Also, I think there have been various studies establishing subconscious racial bias in other contexts. Seems unlikely to me that subconscious bias exists in society at large but somehow criminal sentencing is insulated from it. That doesn't mean judges are doing it on purpose or with a racist motive. Even Black judges could have have such biases against Black men, for example.
     
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  13. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    It really comes down to the idea of do social conditions including racism explain crime and how justice is dispensed, or if you refuse to believe that, you really dont have much else where to go other than racial or class pathologies, that's why I said you should get fitted for a hood, because that's the path you are walking. Because what else would explain why prison populations are what they are? Doesn't mean you are there already, but if you believe in some kind of pathological criminal class that belongs in prison or needs special justice, you might as well get measured.
     
  14. mdgator05

    mdgator05 Premium Member

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    Against my better judgment, especially after the OP tried to argue against the existence of the Law of Large Numbers on another thread, I've decided to explain how regression analysis works in this context and why you don't need perfectly matching cases to discover bias. Let's say, for the sake of argument and simplicity, that there are two variables that we know affect sentencing, the crime committed and prior felony convictions (it should be noted that this is obviously not true in the real world and is not a claim by researchers in the field given the complicated models that they have used, but it is just easier to understand simpler models). A researcher hypothesizes that racial bias also plays a role and finds data that contains the variables for sentence length, race of defendant, the specific crime, and prior felony convictions. To study this, you have one DV (sentence length) and three IVs, race, crime, and prior felonies. Let's say that based on our data, we discover that a prior felony conviction is responsible for a 12.5% increase in a sentence, on average, across our data without regard to race, and a specific crime has, on average, with no prior convictions, a 4 year sentence. Let's assume, for simplicity, that prior convictions are not related to race and are, thus, not biased (a big assumption here, but, again, done for simplicity).

    In the data we see two observations, both convicted of the same crime with that four year expected sentence. One observation is with a white defendant the other has a black defendant. The black defendant has 2 prior felony convictions and the white defendant has zero.

    "A-ha" says lawyer at this point, "The observations don't match and that explains different sentences." However, in a regression analysis, you create a conditional expectation that allows you to compare these two observations. Since we know a prior convictions is related to a 12.5% increase in sentence, our model expects a sentence of 5 years for the black defendant and a 4 year sentence for the white defendant, before we consider race.

    Now, we consider race. We compare the observed sentence for each defendant with our expected sentence for each. That comparison provides us with measure of bias, even in the absence of perfectly matching cases that only differed on race.

    This logic still works even if you include hundreds or even thousands of variables to help create this conditional expectation.

    Beyond regression models, there is something called a matching model. In this type of model, you would compare matching observations. You could do this only when there are perfectly (or, depending on the researcher's judgment, near perfect) matched observations or you could use an algorithm like propensity score matching to create synthetic observations utilizing other observations to approximate a perfect match with a different race. These synthetic observations are then used as a comparison for our real observations.

    Matching and regression models both have advantages and disadvantages. However, it is not necessary to use only a matching model in which you have two perfectly matches cases to uncover bias.
     
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  15. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    Did you suffer a head injury or something? I have consistently said that there is no global sentencing disparity due to race. The emphasis is on the “sentencing”… which, coincidentally, is the subject matter of this thread. Keep on trolling dude….
     
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  16. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    [​IMG]Yawn
     
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  17. Orange_and_Bluke

    Orange_and_Bluke Premium Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  18. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    Another word salad. If you’re suggesting that anybody on this thread, including myself, has even remotely suggested that criminal behavior is innate to a particular race, you need to have your head examined. Nobody has said that or suggested that. Such an assertion would be downright stupid, and racist. In 2023 black incarceration is not a result of racism in the United Stated. If it’s related to any social conditions, that would likely be poverty. People without food, have a higher tendency to commit crimes. Young men without fathers (or responsible, male role models) in their lives, have a much higher incidence of criminal behavior. There are many social conditions which contribute to incarceration.
     
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  19. UFLawyer

    UFLawyer GC Hall of Fame

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    You owe me 10 minutes of my life back for reading your nonsense. Your example attempts (unsuccessfully) to use “two observations” as a basis for a general conclusion.
    That, in and of itself is just laughable. Your biggest mistake in your entire assumption is that your researchers have in front of them, the same information that the sentencing judge has in front of him or her. That is highly unlikely. Second, there are so many other variables that go into sentencing that will never find their way into the record. Something as simple as the defendant mouthing off to the judge during sentencing, could add years to the sentence. That’s not racial, that’s attitude. I could go on, but I would be wasting my time because I think you have a head injury …get help
     
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  20. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    I mean its not like poverty and racism are unrelated, look what happens when we try to address poverty
     
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