Roseanne Barr on the Holocaust

What’s to tolerate? It’s her reasonably informed opinion. She didn’t name anyone and I’m not sure how the other evangelical Christian mod is but it’s safe to assume that an evangelical Christian believes I’m going to hell. It’s kind of a central tenant of their belief system. Perhaps Tilly isn’t an evangelist - that’s not the vibe I get though. He can settle this by declaring that he does not believe I (an avowed atheist) am going to hell, not that I care what his thoughts on the matter are. Ball is in his court.

 

Tilly and Lacuna are good people. Their beliefs are theirs and really not my concern. I do post anti religion stuff from time to time because I think we are close to the tipping point where fewer and fewer people will believe what I think is nonsense. I never post it with animus to tilly or Lacuna though.

 

Its a very mild statement and I see no animus. Huge over reaction on Tilly’s part. I only post on religion in instances where zealot threaten to impinge on the rights of the majority to be free from religion.

Christian zealots in America have this weird totally unhinged perception that they’re being persecuted. It’s quite the opposite.

 

No, she did not name anyone, only made the irresponsible post and then to avoid having to answer has now apparently pleaded the "4th" and announced she is leaving a few days early for a summer break. Convenient holiday for her.
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And no, there is no consensus of belief or tenet about Hell among Christians.

 

I agree with you in principle but I don’t think Tilly or Lacuna are zealots. Just people who believe something that I don’t.

 

Certainly not Lacuna. Tilly has said some very troubling things about LGTB people and of course abortion but I not enough yet to place him in the zealot camp.

 

Evangelical Christians are a different breed and you know it. Mainstream Catholics and other groups no.

 

If looking for a general consensus on dogma there is a spectrum of belief among evangelicals. Doctrinal rigidity is written into the various denominations statements of belief. Yes, some Christians are rigid to the point of brittleness in what they attest to believe, their adherence to the belief the Bible is inerrant and how they behave in their attempts to convert unbelievers. They are the self proclaimed gatekeepers of Christianity, believing they alone have the authority to declare who is or is not a Christian.

Others find flexibility in established orthodox doctrines. Progressive Christianity, as described by its adherents, is characterized by a willingness to question tradition, acceptance of human diversity, a strong emphasis on social justice and care for the poor and the oppressed, and environmental stewardship of the earth. What they most hold in common is the conviction the world would be a better place if all people lived their lives emulating what Jesus taught, though they may disagree on various points of doctrine or belief.

To one degree or another members of Evangelical churches believe they are obligated to respond to the great commision to go into the world and proclaim the gospel and convert unbelievers. Some are more militant in following this directive. They are the ones who give offense.

 

What the hell does THAT have to do with Barr's vile statements? One is an example of a Jew betraying herself and all other Jews. The other is decidedly NOT an example of Jews betraying Jews. It is simply an example of a Reform or Conservative Jew who does not limit him or herself to kosher food. Jews eating pork is NOT analogous to Jews trashing other Jews.

 

My position on hell is what it always has been. I make no claim as to what is absolute on the subject based in scripture. Honestly the scriptures use the term "hell" to mean many things. A trash dump, a grave, etc.

But if there is a hell, as we think of the term, it will certainly not be my call as to who does or does not go there.

What I do believe in is a separation from God at some point for those who He does not "know". I do believe in a literal eternal resting place for those who chose Gods kingdom. I believe Jesus is the bridge between us and our creator.

I make no such absolute claims about hell or the plight of the unbeliever.

 

What other "evangelical" mod? This is what makes no sense. None of us claim to be "evangelicals" as the term is known today.

I share my faith. I love people of all walks, and I try and see the beam in my own eye.

What even is an evangelical by current standards?

 

You really should give calling out posters as liars a rest.

 

I'll play ball. On her July 4th thread JJ announced she is taking a break from Too Hot the rest of the summer so it's past time to return to topic. Only she can say if she is taking off to avoid the question. My apology for my part in diverting the topic of the thread. It was an off topic bridge too far.

 

Back to the Barr. With regard to Roseanne's somewhat confused rambling grievance against the Jewish contingent of the Hollywood establishment, I did sense an otherwise unspoken anger. I sensed double think in her rant and wonder if she is projecting the source or reason for her problem - her admitted neurotic, unfiltered self - onto that establishment.

In a seeming defense her son made this somewhat enigmatic comment - "We are embarrassed that people are stupid enough not to recognize Roseanne is being sarcastic.”

What does that even mean? They are 'embarrassed people are not smart enough to recognize Roseanne was being sarcastic?
What reasons would they have for being embarrassed "people are stupid enough not to recognize" she was being sarcastic.

Adding to the confusion the LA Times reported self revealed information on her formative years growing up with orthodox grandparents in Salt Lake City. Roseanne Barr faces backlash for Holocaust comments: 'Sarcasm or not, it's reprehensible and irresponsible'
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"This isn’t the first time Barr has publicly talked about the Holocaust, and her previous comments indicate that Barr’s actual sentiments are likely antithetical to what the clip on Von’s podcast has led people to believe.

"In April 2023, Barr spoke with Les Glassman, in an interview posted on YouTube, about growing up with Orthodox grandparents in a “hotbed of PTSD” in the “Jewish shtetl” of Salt Lake City. She told Glassman that she had an extraordinary connection with Holocaust survivors, who had suffered “unspeakable things” in her community and had “numbers on their arms,” and that she felt a duty to make them laugh and bring them joy.

"She also said she was traumatized as a child from watching the trial of Nazi leader Adolf Eichmann. “When I was 3 years old, my grandmother and her friends would watch the Eichmann trial. It was on television, and they would insist that I watch it too,” she said. “So that affected me in many, many deep psychological ways, and they would also tell stories of horror.

“And the pictures I saw, they showed me, and they said, ‘She should see, all Jewish children should see what they did to us.’”
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In the linked video interview she reveals she lived a somewhat double life keeping her mother's and her own attendance at Mormon services a secret from her orthodox grandmother.

 

OK, it’s pretty clear.

1) She is complaining about cancel culture in general. She uses as her example Biden election denialism. She claims that he won only 36 counties and then makes what I consider to be a pretty painful case that this has been “mandated” as truth. She says that if you don’t call those figures absolute “truth” YouTube et al will cancel you. BTW, this is the example she chose after an extended rant about the horror of people choosing “bullshit” over all else. FTR, Biden won 538 counties. So, at this point the Battle of Sarcasm v Irony is off to an epic start.

2) She sarcastically states the 36 county/81M votes “mandated truth” again to show what one is forced to say. The host, trying super hard to support her view, is mega confused and keeps trying to clarify. His uncomfortable laughter is channeling the viewers’ thoughts (at least mine.)

3) To clarify her stance, she makes the statements about the Holocaust and Jews generally. IOW, these are NOT her thoughts. She believes the opposites. But she is “forced” to say the things she did by this cancel culture idea. Pretzel Logic has entered the battle and immediately throws both Sarcasm and Irony over the top rope. Not sure I’ve seen YouTube boot someone for confirming the Holocaust but I also don’t have Roseanne’s extensive YT history so….whatever you say??

4) She then pivots back to “supporting” Jews by slamming hillbillies via the fishing show joke. As a hillbilly, I am forced to giggle, since that one might be true.

So lots going on here. No, she didn’t “say” the abhorrent things she did, in fact, say, about Jews and the Holocaust. Those were sarcastic “untruths” she says society forces upon you lest you be cancelled. But those sarcastic points were made to express her disgust at not being “allowed” to say that Biden only won 36 counties. And THAT point was in support of her disgust at people choosing to believe falsehoods because it is “easier.”

At best Ms. Barr has herself all twisted up in a logic trap. Her Biden County argument is a fabricated conspiracy theory debunked in seconds. She is the very problem she identified at the start. In a strained effort to support her thesis she gets it exactly backwards. You will get cancelled, and IMO rightfully so, for saying the opposite of the examples she chose.

Although at this point it is reasonable to consider that the rabbit holes you go down to get to that county conspiracy intersect with the examples she uses: Holocaust denial and antisemitism. It is certainly possible she has seen that very content. Which is a win for Irony since YT and others most certainly DO platform that stuff. And while you’re watching the vid of someone explaining the 36 county conspiracy you’ll likely see those other topics lined up, because the algo knows that these things all go together.

I won’t pretend to know WHY she is wrong at almost every step here. But this has been her for how long now? Not new. And I can’t imagine it’s healthy.

And I am guessing it gets worse, because she is indeed getting killed for the SINGLE PART of this whole thing she got right. This will just fuel her rage about being unfairly judged.

 

I think comedians should be given a wide latitude on what they say. Most of the best political commentary comes from comedians. John Stewart and Steven Colbert come to mind currently and of course the late great George Carlin may have been the best in my lifetime. Lenny Bruce was before my time.