The Daniel Penny case could get interesting.

Except in this case, the guy who died actually physically assaulted both the man who killed him and that man's girlfriend. That's a very different circumstance.

 

Yet in spite of attacker hitting him in the face and hitting his girlfriend and previously threatening other women on the car, Williams, who then stabbed him, was arrested.

It is quite clear that there is a fundamental NYC right to verbally abuse, harass and even attack fellow subway riders.

 

Well, he did stab somebody to death. It's not abnormal for that to get you arrested. It's not the cops' job to figure out if he has a defense or not.

 

So if you are getting physically attacked you aren’t allowed to use a knife?

 

You can't use deadly force to defend against non deadly force. If, without provocation, I punch you in the face, you don't get to shoot me.

 

Getting punched in the face isn’t potentially deadly force?

 

No, not with a bare hand. Perhaps if you are a frail, little old lady, you might be authorized to use more force, but under NORMAL circumstances...no.

 

Sounds like a more clear cut example of self defense if he really did hit him and his girlfriend first.

 

The issue I see is generally one can't introduce a knife into a fistfight. Keep in mind NY in NOT a SYG state, there is a duty to retreat.

 

Williams and Ouedraogo then continued talking until Ouedraogo punched him in face, Eric told the New York Post.


The newspaper, citing sources, said Ouedraogo also hit Williams’ girlfriend.

 

in places where guns are allowed you are usually allowed to defend your self with it if physically attacked.

 

Only if you are being threatened with deadly force, not if you are being threatened with non deadly force.

Florida law:
776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—
(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual

 

One off case affecting <0.0001% of the population. Shut the thread down before I “off topic” everyone.

Am I doing this right?

 

Threat of great bodily harm? This likely varies from state to state.

 

NY law?

 

So getting punched in the face is not great bodily harm? Also the attacker had threatened he was going to kill someone.

 

Section 35.15 - Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:
(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor with intent to cause physical injury to another person; or
(b) The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case the use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if the actor has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force; or
(c) The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:
(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or
(b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or
(c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

From NY's jury instructions:
DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE means physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury

 

Im with you. A person using fists should be considered lethal force. If someone is attacking someone they aren't trying to score points they are trying to cause harm. I'm not a fan of people looking for situations to fear and pull out their guns but if someone brings violence on them then the victim shouldn't be forced to have to qualify their threat level, be forced to fight back or hope they can flea their attacker. Of course all of this should be situational, not for people who contribute to an altercation before realizing they started something they couldn't finish.