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How China's Military Views the United States

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by chemgator, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    Not persuasive
     
  2. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    The real problem. I am setting aside Taiwan for the moment because it is Chinese under international law. Parenthetically, if China had not subjugated HK and violated the “One Nation, Two Systems” pledge, they likely would have been able to integrate Taiwan peacefully. But autocrats have to be themselves

    But here is the most intense source of friction that unites the region in defensive alliances with the US. Ironically, if the CCP were not so obviously totalitarian, they would likely naturally dominate the region as regional hegemon. But the CCP will not accept simple outsized domination with autonomy for other nations. So other nations feel they must act defensively to preserve even minimal sovereignty, especially over their waters and the right to transit and make common usage of international waters



    He added that “China has indisputable sovereignty over the South China Sea islands and the adjacent waters.”

    Li, who became China’s defense minister in March, declined Austin’s invitation to talk on the sidelines of the conference, though the two did shake hands before sitting down at opposite sides of the same table together as the forum opened Friday.




    US defense secretary says Washington won’t stand for ‘coercion and bullying’ from China
    US defense secretary says Washington won’t stand for ‘coercion and bullying’ from China - Tampa Bay Times

    For more great content like this subscribe to the Tampa Bay Times app here:
     
  3. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Germany is also transitioning from gasoline/diesel cars to electric cars. And Germany makes a lot of cars.

    I don't put too much stock into what the Chinese government says. Especially since they restricted access of international investors to information about Chinese companies.

    I do know that China has very high unemployment among its younger people. So much so, that Xi is asking them to work in the fields. I also know that it is getting harder to get Chinese people willing to work in factories. And I know that Chinese chemical plant reactor manufacturers are a couple decades behind their German counterparts (and I'm being generous when I say a couple decades).

    Sounds to me like you are swallowing some propaganda yourself. What does yours taste like?
     
  4. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

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    Right, they're transitioning from making the type of cars they're good at making, to something the Chinese are good at making. Those cars will also be powered increasingly by renewables, another market the Chinese is dominating. Not a great prospect for them.

    Yes, China is having an youth unemployment problem, your point? Even with the large youth unemployment and the huge property slump they're still growing at 5.5%. That should give you an idea of the resilience of their economy.

    German chemical plants are very advanced, best in the world in many regards. You're in the industry, so why don't you take a look at how they've been doing since the Ukraine war and then get back at me.
     
  5. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

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    The key here is unite in an alliance with the US. Without the US that whole region becomes China's pond. We're the lynchpin in stopping China's advances, that's why I've been advocating on focusing on strengthening ourselves and stop wasting ours and our allies' resources everywhere else in the world but in East Asia. We got sidetracked for 20 years in the Middle East, and just as soon as we extricated ourselves from there we got sucked into a conflict in Eastern Europe. All the while the Chinese economy has grown many fold and they've completely transformed their military on the back of their newfound economic and industrial strength.

    This is gonna keep happen if we continue to get distracted while facing the single greatest adversary since the Civil War, especially when many of our citizens are consumed by the Russian menace while minimizing the Chinese threat.
     
  6. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    I drove in a BMW i4 electric car a few months ago when I was in Germany. It was an excellent car. I cannot imagine the Chinese, who up until this point had refrained from entering their vehicles in the U.S. market because they really stunk to high heaven (i.e., they were garbage), have improved that much in performance and quality, that they could produce a car capable of competing with the i4. Producing a lot of cars and producing really good cars are two separate issues. Yugoslavia probably made a lot of Yugo's, but it doesn't mean they were any good. I'm sure China is dominating their own market, but I haven't seen any Chinese electric cars in the U.S. (or Germany). I would say that the prospects for Germany in electric cars are very good for the next decade or more, based on what I've seen. Cars still have to have good handling, braking, and ergonomics, regardless of what is driving the wheels, not to mention reliability.
    It tells me more about the resilience of their propaganda. How do you KNOW that China's economy is growing at 5.5%? Who told you that? What is that based on? Rumor? The Chinese government said so?
    They are doing about the same as we are. Sales are down 20-40% from peak levels. They may be down, but no one is closing shop. I was actually referring to the reactor manufacturing business, which is separate from the chemical business, although tied to it. Germans have some of the best mechanical engineering in the world (our chemical engineering might be a bit better, but I could be biased).
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2023
  7. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    upload_2023-6-4_17-17-12.png
     
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  8. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Japan just implemented new restrictions on sending computer chips and related tools and equipment for chip manufacture to China, and China is not happy.

    Tech war: Japan's new semiconductor tool export restrictions throw a major spanner in works of China's chip plans

    Too bad China is not a friendly market.
    I understand China tried to source some DUV equipment from Russia, but all it got for its efforts was some Deep Unpleasant Vodka-making hardware.
     
  9. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

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    The 5.5% is the consensus estimates from the likes of Goldman Sachs.

    For chemicals, you do realize that Germany spent a whopping $23 BILLION last year to subsidize their industries over energy costs, right? Without that many would've closed shop already. I'm sure you know how big of a part energy is to a chemical business's running expenses, and I'm sure you know quite well how much more LNG costs compared to pipelined gas. Do you really think that won't have an extremely detrimental impact on Germany's chemical businesses? German industries know it quite well, and they've scaled down operations so much that natural gas is actually cheap now, suggesting that they probably overcompensated.

    As for EVs, it won't take long. You'll see. The Chinese EV companies are hesitant to enter the American market for political reasons, I'm sure you already know that. Just look at the markets where they have entered, the Germans are not doing well. Chinese EVs have just started entering Europe, mostly just this year. Also, don't forget that Tesla makes a lot of EVs in China, and they're exporting it everywhere. So sit back and watch what happens over the next couple of years. Like I said, it won't take long.

    Chinese EVs outsold German ones by 11 to 1 in Australia in 2022:
    Australia's EV market by brand, region and buyer type

    It's getting worse in Australia this year, but now increasingly with Chinese brands and not just Teslas anymore. The top 2 models remain Teslas, but the next 4 are Chinese. Your beloved BMW i4? Keep scrolling lol. A whopping 13 units sold in Q1!:

    Australia's best-selling electric cars so far in 2023

    Two Chinese brands are in the top 3 of the Israeli market. The other one of the top 3 is Model Y, probably made in China.
    10% of new cars sold in Israel in 2022 were EVs.

    And of course, there's the Chinese market. Volkswagen was (and I believe still is) the #1 selling ICE brand in China if not the #1 selling car brand overall, but it's not even in the top 10 for EVs. Elon Musk is doubling down in China which will contribute a lot to Chinese EV exports as well.

    I suggest you check out some reviews on YouTube. There's a reason China has overtaken Japan as the #1 car exporter, and that's with the world's largest market counting as domestic, and having little presence in the world's second largest market. The tsunami of made-in-China EVs is just getting started.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2023
  10. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Built by a country that hasn't had a significant naval battle since when, the 1500's? My money's on the country that's been in a few battles. In some respects, a ship is only as good as the people operating it, and, in my estimation, the additional combat experience of the U.S. translates to better training and better performance, and probably design. It's not just about adding up how many of each kind of missile is on board and comparing how fast the ships are, although those are important stats.
     
  11. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Goldman Sachs has been cut out of the insider information on Chinese companies just like every other western company has. They are only able to feed the communist party line now just like everyone else. You take Sachs' word for it; well, they are taking the Chinese government's word for it. Sachs to be you! :)
     
  12. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

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    But you're quick to believe China's youth unemployment numbers, I wonder where that came from? Is this a "data I like is true, data I don't is false" kind of situation? 5.5% is a pretty reasonable number, considering the COVID lockdowns the middle of last year and then the massive outbreak when they stopped the lockdowns at the end of the year.
     
  13. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    First of all, it is unflattering news where China has nothing to gain by printing it. It also came with a request/order from Xi Jingping for unemployed youth to move out to the country and work in the fields where they are needed (but their education is not). It is fairly obvious that there is some truth to it if public policy is changing because of it. Finally, this news seems like it is meant for internal consumption.

    Your 5.5% growth information is very flattering to China, and it helps persuade foreigners to invest their money in Chinese companies. So China has a lot to gain from printing it, especially in the absence of any other information getting out to foreign investors. Also, this news seems like it is more meant for external consumption. Communist governments are much more likely to lie to outsiders than to their own people, if they can avoid it. They are in power because of the goodwill of the people, so they need to maintain some minimum level of trust.

    I also don't see the 5.5% number as being reasonable, not only because of their Covid problems, but also their difficulties in staffing their factories, and all of the trade restrictions put on China by countries like the U.S. and Britain. Furthermore, the complete lack of traffic in ports like Los Angeles indicates that the U.S. (China's biggest customer, remember?) is not buying much from China. So far, China has never been able to support itself with internal sales, and I don't expect that to change overnight. At some point, the provincial loan crisis as well as the banking and real estate crises have to have a negative impact on the economy. You would have to assume they have some magical wands to point at the economy to believe otherwise.

    This is all Communist B.S. Detection 101, not even an advanced class.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2023
  14. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    China is making friends in West Africa with its massive fishing fleet.

    ‘They are stealing what should be ours’: Chinese trawlers are emptying West African fishing grounds

     
  15. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Former German military pilots have also been guilty of training Chinese military pilots. Germany started cracking down on the practice.

    Germany Demands China Stop Using Ex-Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots For Training

     
  16. chemgator

    chemgator GC Hall of Fame

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    Another article on the health of the Chinese economy. (Hint: it's not good.)

    China's economy is in trouble: What does that mean for the U.S.?

    High praise, indeed!
    You don't say?
    A drop in the bucket, I suppose!
    Shaken, but not stirred . . .
     
  17. dingyibvs

    dingyibvs Premium Member

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    Got it, so bad news is true, good news is false. You see how that can get you a biased view, right?

    The debt crisis is of course impacting China, that's why they've been stringent with stimulus while the rest of the world hands out cash like it's going out of fashion. If China pumped a couple trillion dollars into their economy like we did their GDP would be growing a lot faster, but they'd also be dealing with inflation like we are as well.

    As for how can the Chinese economy be sustained with a decrease in exports to the US? Take a look at this graph:

    China's exports shifting from West to Global South - Asia Times

    [​IMG]
     
  18. duggers_dad

    duggers_dad GC Hall of Fame

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    What makes you so sure that China is looking for a battle on the high seas when they can simply destroy US carriers with stand-off weapons ? Why do you think the US carrier group watched from the safety of the Philippines while China was simulating a takeover of Taiwan ?
     
  19. oragator1

    oragator1 Premium Member

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    Two independent numbers on chinas growth.

    “China’s authoritarian leader Xi Jinping was sworn in for another five-year term last week. Martinez’s model suggests Beijing may have overstated GDP growth by a third over the past two decades, making its economy far smaller than claimed.

    A report published by the Brookings Institution in 2019 suggested that China had been overstating its economic growth by about 2% every year, making its economy 12% smaller than official figures then claimed.”

    Satellites Shed Light on Dictators' Lies About Economic Growth.

    As far as the youth unemployment, basic logic says that if they are making the numbers look better on the overall economy, the youth unemployment could very well be worse than reported. As mentioned, if it wasn’t a serious problem they wouldn’t be trying to get kids to move to the country, they clearly have an issue there.
     
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