The spreading GOP destruction of public education

I completely agree. So the problem why some schools are bad, in my opinion anyway, is the allocation of funds by school boards is unequal, and school administrators in those schools are afraid to admit their school is out of control opting to take the side of the parents and students against the teachers when discipline problems occur. The lack of discipline and respect causes the good teachers to leave with no replacements for the students to learn from. So shut the school down. However, what if there isn’t enough voucher schools in that area to take the students? What do those kids do?

 

No. I was countering her blaming a hypothetical failure on DeSantis when Florida's education system is actually showing strong metrics. all while the very subject of this thread is the one overseeing a mediocre system that lags well behind Florida in most criteria.

 

Do you know of any reputable studies suggesting that learning about systemic discrimination is harmful to students' development. What about acknowledging the existence of homosexuality or racism? I can't find any. If there is no harm, how can there be a proper grade level?

 

They generally don't shut the school down and poor/middle class kids in the district are forced to go there with poor teachers, poor facilities etc.

This is the exact reason why a choice system should exist for many.

 

The fact of the matter is if DeSantis’ idiocy hurts education it likely won’t be visible until he’s gone and the next guy gets blamed.

 

I read Friedman’s Capitalism and Freedom, where he argues for vouchers. While I can’t speak for all that endorse vouchers, it was very clear to me that Friedman himself was very sincere in his claim that vouchers will improve the entire education system.

The basic argument, which I think has to be taken seriously, even if it is unproven in this particular market, is that knowledge accrues fastest through evolutionary processes of trial and error. Variation in approaches among schools is a resource because the variants can be compared against one another, and the most successful can be emulated in the next generation. The system will, necessarily it seems, lead to relative disparities in quality at any given time, but over time, says the argument, even the lowest quality schools will exceed the successes of average schools conceived though the current strategy of uniform state schooling.

If one values relative success more than absolute success, I can see why vouchers would appear unpalatable. However, I don’t think one can assume all supporters of vouchers are employing that same moral framework. To my lights, it seems clear that Friedman valued absolute outcomes and therefore viewed school choice as essential to providing quality education for all citizens.

 

I believe the rankings vary depending on the metrics, but this one has Florida at #42 and North Carolina at #43. Not much of a difference.
2023 State Education Rankings - Best to Worst

 

I read his book. He may been sincere at one point along the journey. I am reasonably certain that he disagreed with the concept of public education. That of course leads to the second general critique. What is the purpose of the educational system? At a very crude level oversimplification, and there is much in between, and many other issues, are you trying to come up with a cost-effective way basic education to the vast majority of the populace, with alternative available routes for specialty cases? Or are you merely trying to come up with the most effective possible system that might only work for limited subset, with little limitation on ultimate cost? You have to define your goals in advance.

Plus, like I said, you can't model power or original sin. But it can still be a useful model, even if it should not serve as one to implement on a broad basis. No large system is implemented on a tabula rasa. Grace builds on nature, etc. Have to go for a call

 

Are you referring to the voucher models we're talking about today? Or are you referring to charter schools or magnet schools or something else? I'm sincerely not sure what was widespread way back then?

 

It's absolutely one of the worst things happening to this country, yet you got three funnies. Unbelievable!

That won't shut the poster up, and forget a "my bad".

Yes it is! I know a lot about this, but I don't have the time or energy to write a three page response most no one is interested in reading. I got a MED in education and was working on a PhD when I got interested in education law and switched to law school.

 

No I don’t.

Let the parents decide at what age. It’s their child not mine.

 

Friedman starts with the premise that a citizen-led democracy requires that the citizenry have a basic level of education in order to care for the democracy. Immediately this argument suggests that education is a public good, and therefore justifies the use of public resources, such as public schools or vouchers. This is unlike medical school, where the doctors enjoy personal renumeration that can offset the cost of their prior schooling. No such privatized gains are realized by being a good democratic citizen.

What are the ideal kinds of educational outcomes to produce the most robust democracy? Now that is a philosophical rabbit hole from which we might never return, but it’s a quandary that applies to both of our ostensible options here.

How to even measure our educational aims puts us in a serious quagmire, but if we are interested in performance on standardized tests measured against the students of other countries, I think it is quite likely our students would be doing better today has the US adopted vouchers back in the 60s. Now even if we accept this claim, it doesn’t prove that the voucher system is “better” than the current system, but it should at least suggest that there are ethically valid reasons to support vouchers.

 

Yes. But vouchers in general. I think an income limit needs to be installed.

 

I will accept for purpose of this discussion that he might have thought of education as a public good testifying public resources, although you are far more conversant with the specifics of his various opinions than I am.

I analogize it somewhat to the debate over reform of healthcare - whether in designing the structure of the system we should emphasize as a first priority the ability to cure or extend life for various difficult diseases/pathologies, or to ensure that everyone can access basic preventive care.

Again, these are gross oversimplifications.

While I agree it is a philosophical rabbit hole, I don't believe you can avoid that rabbit hole if you want to have a reasonable discussion. You must define your metric at some level of generality.

I don't know that I accept the voucher system would improve standardized test scores, presuming that's the appropriate metric. But then again, by what metric of our population of test scores - average, mean, median? It implicates the same dilemma.

But ultimately, my problem with vouchers is that there overlaid on our current caste system, and indeed are a reaction/product of it. There's a lot more to be said, and this is interesting and a good faith discussion. But that's enough for now.

 

The future is not a fact, but the present is.
Regardless, THIS thread is about Roy Cooper who happens to be a governor that can't hang his hat on education.

 

Whoa...Not so fast. My industry is called the "non profit sector" for a reason there Mr. Bezos.

 

I think you had to dig for that one. Most of them I have seen have Florida 10-15 spots higher in K-12.

 

He's on his second term so IF that was happening we would've seen something by now.