So what’s new in DuhSantistan?

What is more traditional than hierarchies? They are often defended with appeals to tradition, so I dont really see the distinction. For example, defending "traditional" gender roles is defending a hierarchy and existing power structure in society. These are not necessarily distinct things. But I can see why conservatives might not want to say they are protecting the status quo or male dominance, but rather defending "tradition" which certainly has more appeal rhetorically, to men and women.

That is actually a good way of putting it. Conservatives ideas have basically won in the political sphere for like 40 years now, to where many of their ideas have been accepted by their opponents. Carter doing fiscal shock therapy with the Fed, Clinton doing welfare reform & the crime bill, Obama doing the Heritage foundation's healthcare plan, Pelosi adopting PayGo standards in congress, etc. Almost none of those things are viewed as victories by conservatives, quite the opposite. Their ideological victory is so total, they've largely abandoned policy, its like their focus is just on making people like them (and using courts and lawfare to stymie anything vaguely progressive), so you just have to use the apparatus of the state to make people like you by banning all the things they think make you 'liberal', learning about racism in school, library books, a rainbow flag, drag queen performances, etc.

 

I definitely sympathize with your viewpoint, BLING. Obviously, I’m not going to be sympathetic to 2020 election deniers. Or to the GOP as whole. Yet, I still want to preserve a attitude of fallibilism in my thought. See the price gouging example I offered to wgb above.

Here, Id like to take up the abortion example you offered. Now calling others “baby killers” is exactly the kind of behavior that I’m arguing against, because it doesn’t consider the viewpoint of the accuser to be fallible. Similarly, those that are anti-abortion are accused of hating women.

I find this issue particularly instructive, because I see absolutely no logical path to adjudicate the debate. Science simply cannot tell us when life is a human. Regardless of the time limit we choose for abortions, 8 weeks, 15 weeks, etc., one second later or earlier would be effectively no different. I have a friend who believes that language is what makes us human, and to take this to the absurd, using his definition we might be able to justify aborting a 10 month old who hasn’t yet learned to talk. I should believe that that feels wrong to all of us, but what power are we to grant to feelings?

In the end, we have one group that wants to protect human women and another that wants to protect human babies. I see both of these as noble pursuits, yet few on either side defect a hint of nobility in the intentions of the other.

So what do we do? Tough issue, but one thing I think we can’t let happen is to allow one side to basically banish the other. We can’t let the GOP make election laws favorable to their own side, but I also think that we can’t let the left banish the viewpoints of the right because they seem dumb from their perspective. We need to keep strong our institutions, like the courts, our decision rules, and the FBI. Sadly, it seems many have lost faith in these institutions already, but if they are truly gone, I don’t think they can be replaced by the reason of one side or the other.

 

Newsflash: The argument you started had nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is Florida’s educational future under Desantis. We showed you it was already poor and will continue to decline under his leadership, and you went off topic about how people are coming here in droves, lol. A lot of why people move to Florida has nothing to do with the governor and much more to do with other things, like no state tax and lack of snow, but try to keep up.

 

Topic at hand? Topic at hand is in the title of the thread. LOL, yeah UF is terrible and going to shit... Holy crap, you and others live in fantasy land. Must suck being so wrong all the time.

 

Well I think it would be equally valid to view these relationships as “ecosystems” rather than “hierarchies”, and indeed we have shown a pretty poor ability to rationally improve ecosystem function (see the Australian cane toad debacle). It sounds as if you personally know that secretly all conservatives want to control others and use “tradition” as a cover. This reminds me of conservatives on here usually define socialism as some desire to control others under the guise of equality, which has obviously never found your favor.

Again, I keep coming back to the subjective nature of this analysis. To bring back the gouging example, this empirical evidence simply isn’t convincing to you. And of course, conservatives will not let you forget of the empirical failures of communism in the USSR and Venezuela, but neither are these failures fatal to your beliefs. Meanwhile, conservatives could point to a list of liberal political victories just as long as yours, such as gay marriage, government spending accounting for almost 50% of GDP last year, Obamacare, title IX, etc.

Basically, I don’t think we have a criterion for truth and our next best thing is a system where ideas are tested via social exchange and critique. We now understand very well that individual rationality is severely hampered by a litany of cognitive biases, and therefore we must let our ideas be critiqued by a truly diverse set of perspectives, including that of conservatives, regardless of how worthless their ideas seem to their opposition. In fact, this is the exact rationale behind the feminist and minority critiques of traditional knowledge structures, such as CRT. As much as conservatives need us, women, and minorities to help identify their blind spots, we need them for much the same reason.

 

They aren't really 'ecosystems,' that is a term we ascribe to nature being repurposed by people to describe things that arent really "natural." An ant colony may have a hierarchy, but that doesn't mean a military officer telling some grunts what to do or a man beating his wife for not knowing her place is some kind of natural order. Tradition is invented by man, the workings of ant colonies are not affected by human choices or institutions.

Well yes, what we do have is a system where ideas are tested by social exchange, much like our exchange economy ("the marketplace of ideas"). This is sort of what I was getting at. Imagine in an exchange economy if I just started flaunting the informal rules of an exchange economy and openly misrepresenting values without any consequence. It would sort of call that exchange economy into question right? People would be less inclined to participate in ways they had before and it would lead to more open conflict and fingerpointing to those that they believed enabled that state of affairs.

 

Your arrogance is hilarious considering you’re a complete dope. Again, what does people moving to Florida for things completely unrelated to Desantis have anything to do with the current and future state of Florida’s piss poor educational system? We’re talking the entire state of Florida here, not just UF. Try to keep up.

 

IF DeSantis is so bad as you say, then the 500 thousand or so people who move to FL every year must be stupid. Florida has one of the most affordable colleges in the country. Sorry to burst your DeSantis is the devil bubble. Can't fix stupid comes to mind with you.

 

Lol. Most people who move to Florida are retirees who want the no state tax and not having to deal with the snow. Those people don’t care about the state of the educational system considering they’re no longer working and none of that affects them. Not surprised you can’t grasp that concept, though.

 

Most? Where do you get your data? When you make up crap, you look even more foolish than just admitting you were wrong. I'd say do better but I know you won't. Just lazy on your part.

Florida, Here They Come | Okaloosa EDC.

 

Families with LGBTQ members can’t get out of Florida fast enough due to its homophobic governor. I have three families I lost at work in the last 6 months due to this very fact. Additionally, this still doesn’t address the fact that Florida’s education system is currently in the toilet. There is no debating this, all the facts back it up, lol.

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/01/half-lgbtq-parents-florida-considering-moving-state/

 

Wow, did you move the goalpost with a quickness. Lol
You found that article from….wait for it…lgbtq nation. And it says half are considering a move. Boy that was an embarrassing checkers move for you.
Guess you shouldn’t call people a dope.

 

So you won't even address your bogus claim. Got it. You are just making up crap. Thanks for admitting it. Now you are making up that 3 families moved because of LGBTQ "issues" in Fl. Too funny. No one believes you.

 

This clown is super funny. Just making up crap left and right. All racists and old people moving to FL lol.

 

Once again, what does this have to do with the current state of Florida education going downhill and progressively getting worse? Try and address the original point instead of changing the topic to how many people are moving here, which is completely unrelated. My job works with many diverse backgrounds and people from all walks of life. Don’t really care if you believe me or not, it’s true, lol. Nobody with an LGBTQ child or children want to raise their kids here, and the facts are showing that as well. Read the article I sent, or better yet, just use common sense.

 

LOL. You are full of crap. You confirmed it for everyone here. You made up data and now you are trying to change the subject. Too funny. No one believes you. Thanks for the laughs.

 

The only person who changed the topic was you, lmao. I stated “Illinois is doing better than Florida in education. Florida education is getting worse and is trending down.” You completely changed the topic to “More people are moving to Florida than Illinois.” What does that have to do with anything I stated? Lol.

 

I just saw a live musical Rock of Ages and judging by the crowd, the lgbtq folks are quite happy. The areas around Orlando are known for gays. Key west is another place where this community is thriving.
I don’t know why you’re trying to sell us trash when we know it’s trash, we ain’t buying it.
Floridas public education has been suspect for many years, that’s not a new thing. You’re just coming off butthurt about the governor that most everyone is in favor of. Is that it?

 

The guy who contributes nothing 95% of the time and posts smart ass gif’s anytime someone points out all the fallacies in his post calling someone else’s posts trash, lol. The original point was about Florida’s educational system and how it’s getting worse and primed to drop even lower and lower with all the harmful changes Desantis is making to it. Then 95 goes off topic about people moving to Florida which has nothing to do with the original point I made. How about next time you address the topic instead of spinning it completely in a different direction that had nothing to do with anything I said, lol.