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A bridge too far?

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by Trickster, Dec 14, 2022.

  1. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    This is false, thoughts on gender identity are not universal to the human condition over the last hundreds of thousands of years at all. Just some basic study of Native American cultures would tell you that.

    Two-spirit - Wikipedia
     
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  2. sierragator

    sierragator GC Hall of Fame

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    yep. e.g. polynesian culture has male, female, and an in between designation. The missionaries tried to stamp that out of course.
     
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  3. rivergator

    rivergator Too Hot Mod Moderator VIP Member

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    I didn't know that. But a quick look online shows a lot more examples. This piece gives examples most continents.


    Exploring the history of gender expression.
     
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  4. philnotfil

    philnotfil GC Hall of Fame

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    Yes, struggling with the idea that people can choose their name is likely indicative of other issues.

    I hope you never have a boss who goes by a nickname instead of their legal name.
     
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  5. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    One of the native Florida cultures allowed men who didnt want to fight to basically "become" women and do the really crap jobs. They were usually looked down on by everyone else, so it should be said while there was room for fluidity, it wasnt necessarily "accepted" in terms of equality. The Spanish were really confused by it and just thought they were hermaphrodites. In fact in a Florida history at UF, I was taught they were actually hermaphrodites. I didnt learn until later that there is some dispute as to how many were actually true hermaphrodites or just men living as women.
     
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  6. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    I will say that the pace is social change can be disorienting. I don't fault people for feeling uncomfortable, although the phenomenon of a new generation adopting norms their parents resist and feel uncomfortable with is not new, even if this particular gender fluidity feels new. Mistakes and discomfort will happen. We should all be tolerant of that.

    But to say that you will intentionally not call someone what they request you do is in no way something to be applauded, and certainly not tolerated from a teacher. You don't have to be comfortable with it, you just have to use the name or pronoun
     
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  7. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    And let's be cognizant of historical antecendents and the atmosphere we are creating

     
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  8. swampbabe

    swampbabe GC Hall of Fame

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    Frankly, it's a goofy hill to die on for that teacher. Call the kid what they want to be called and be done with it.
     
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  9. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

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    She may just have gotten caught up in the culture war. I sense that many semi-decent people who would otherwise have better manners and common sense, and certainly would not jeopardize their careers, get worked up and lose their sense of equilibrium after being fed incessant messages that they are victims under attack and have to fight back to save society, etc. They lose all sense of connection to reality
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
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  10. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    I think it was done intentionally to generate a lawsuit
     
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  11. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

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    I have just used their name. Or, in an informal conversation, skip the pronoun and go right to the verb. Ex: "Did you see what Johnny did? Gave Suzy a wedgie. Right in front of Mrs. Mills."

    If I was asked to use a different pronoun, I ask myself, what is the best way to teach the student? If using a different pronoun means they will listen or give more effort, who cares?
     
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  12. mrhansduck

    mrhansduck GC Hall of Fame

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    It seems to me that people's attitudes about the respective roles and power dynamics may come down to who's on which side of an issue. Here, the teacher has an objection to gender transitioning (and presumably, this teacher's objection would have been the same even if the parents approved). But what about the reverse situation - where a teacher says her values and beliefs require her to mentor her students in a way that promotes tolerance and acceptance of the LGBT community, to include transitioning. Should that teacher get deference as the mentor to talk about those issues or would there be a basis to give students/parents a veto in that context because they don't like what the teacher has to say?
     
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  13. partdopy

    partdopy GC Hall of Fame

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    Interesting take. How did this teachers students perform in the subject being taught? That should be the bar for keeping a teacher employed, except obviously if there is some type of illegal activity, etc...

    I haven't extensively researched this subject as I'm not a medical professional or similar, but I do know they have much, much higher instances of mental health problems, such as 4x as much clinical depression. In my mind, when you see certain behaviors with obvious links to real underlying problems, you treat the underlying problem. If a heroine addict keeps stealing to fund their habit you don't punish them for stealing as much as fix the addiction. That's why rehab is often handed out rather than prison.

    It is also worth mentioning that as these deviant behaviors become more popular in social media the prevalence keeps growing. This is similar to almost all trends you see on social media. Its almost surely 99% a trend that will have life altering consequences.
    List of mass hysteria cases - Wikipedia
     
  14. partdopy

    partdopy GC Hall of Fame

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    A teacher is required to teach their subject and mentor children to be productive members of society. This should include healthy self expression, but also (and equally important) when is an appropriate time to partake in self expression. During a time when you're supposed to be learning is not an appropriate time for either the teacher or student. Teach your subject.

    I am obviously on the right side of the political aisle, and I wouldn't want a teacher spending lesson time teaching my kid that the NRA is a great organization, or that taxes are bad and social security is a ponzi scheme. I'd want them to teach the subject.
     
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  15. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    Medical professionals generally agree that calling people by their chosen name and pronouns is the best matter of course. A teacher that doesnt is pretty much going against clinical recommendations. Of course, this is why social conservatives are attacking gender affirming care now, to create a controversy where there was none.
     
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  16. swampbabe

    swampbabe GC Hall of Fame

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    See my response above, this teacher is making a mountain out of a molehill for her own selfish reasons. Call the kid what they want to be called and move along. As long as the kid is performing and not acting out in a self destructive way the teacher needs to shut their pie hole.

    Edit to add: maybe some of this mental distress is caused by a kid feeling misunderstood and feeling depression/anxiety because of this.
     
  17. Gator40

    Gator40 Avada Kedavra

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    A bit off. The point is call the kid what they want and be done with it so you can teach your subject. Who is being and acting like the child in this situation? The teacher is out of line and shouldn't bring their personal beliefs into the classroom and should just teach the subject, yes?
     
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  18. defensewinschampionships

    defensewinschampionships GC Hall of Fame

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    Very much agree. I'm not about to jeopardize my ability to teach over a political stance.

    I've seen the opposite from colleagues on both sides of the aisle. I think it is dumb to undermine your ability to teach based on a political belief.
     
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  19. partdopy

    partdopy GC Hall of Fame

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    Didn't address the fact that these disorders are highly correlated with mental health issues, which should be addressed first. You don't skip that part, it's important. I know there are people who suffer from body integrity disorder and want to remove their limbs and other body parts. Do you think we should just give them body integrity affirming care and amputate whatever they desire? Or should we try to treat any underlying issues?

    If you're suffering from mental illness enough that you disrupt the learning environment you should be removed.
     
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  20. wgbgator

    wgbgator Premium Member

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    Literally no one recommends everyone with diagnosed gender dysphoria should transition, but they pretty much all recommend that they should be able to present socially how they wish, including name and pronouns. Social acceptance is a big part of improving their mental health. A teacher doing the opposite is doing nothing to improve their mental health.
     
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