War in Ukraine

You’re leaving out a lot for a convenient narrative. I don’t deny the extreme right in this country supported letting Hitler have free reign in Western Europe. But the extreme left was also too happy to let Stalin’s ally wreck the free-market democracies and speed along a revolution they viewed as inevitable. As I’ve pointed out in previous posts, the left only stood up and shouted “How dare he!” once Hitler invaded the Soviet Union. And only then was Roosevelt able to get any preparedness measures through Congress.

But there’s another point to WW2 American isolationism that is inconvenient to a political narrative that wants to neatly align it with the Republican Party. The majority of adult Americans, regardless for political leanings, had very good reason to believe we were scammed by Britain and France into joining WW1 on their side. Most Americans were initially blinded to the threat of Hitler by their bias against being forced to join another imperial war for imperial goals (which WW2 was not, but WW1 certainly was).

 

Who is included in this "extreme left"? Because when I look at the names of your "extreme right", I see some really famous and important people. The America First movement of the 1940's included Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh, future Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, and the head of Sears-Roebuck. The contemporary America First movement includes the former president of the United States, who once praised Henry Ford's "good bloodlines."

 

They already have a way to get oil to high paying customers. Everything that has been tried to keep Russian oil off of the market up until now has failed.

 

If the argument that is being used is to stop and get rid of authoritarian governments the only way to do that is to remove them from the board. Ukraine is by no means in any sense of the word a stellar democracy nor will they change.

 

I agree it will not happen but if the intent is to stop authoritarian governments what I stated is the best solution. Otherwise it is a never ending cycle.

 

That's not the argument. Even if it were, that's a false dichotomy. You can't prove that.

 

Then tell me why we are in Ukraine?

 

We've told you a thousand times in this very thread. You just chose, for whatever reason, to ignore it.

 

Oh you mean we have to stop Russian aggression because we are obligated to do so. That is total horse hockey.

 

Is it? Define obligated

 

Exactly. The argument here is about self-determination of nations. Ukraine is saying it’s a sovereign, independent nation with its own people, language, borders, and natural right of self defense. Russia is saying Ukraine doesn’t really exist and is a rebellious part of Russia that they can do whatever they want with. I happen to agree with Ukraine.

 

We have absolutely zero obligation to Ukraine.

obligated
adjective

1. under a moral obligation to someone.
2. under a legal obligation to someone.
3. owing gratitude or recognition to another for help or favors etc. Opposite of unobligated

 

The notion that Russia is weak is predicated on the simple observation that Russia hasn’t conquered a country the size of Texas in eight months.

Set aside the fact that it took NATO, with heavy US support, 108,000 troops and NINE months to pacify no more than 12,000 insurgents in the city of Mosul.

It grossly UNDER-estimates the size and strength of the Ukrainian military going in.

It grossly OVER-estimates the number of Russian troops in theatre until just recently.

 

Oh, but we do.

We most certainly have a moral obligation to stop Russia and we also have self interest obligations. It's clear as day to anyone that has obligations to Western small l liberal democracy.

 

That is where you and I disagree. We live in a world of authoritarian regimes. In a world defined by morals the only solution is to rid the world of them all. Yet we do not do that. Why?

 

Nation that won’t let you open your business, send your kid to school, go to church, comfort your dying, bury your dead, snoops on citizens, raids the home of a former president burdens taxpayers with the bill to defend a country that bans opposition parties and shells its own citizens.

Freedom and Democracy.

 

Again with the false dichotomy.

By this flawed logic: since they exist and we seem unwilling to extinguish them, we must accept their aggressions?

 

Setting aside wild Ghost of Kyiv type exclamations, Russian casualties estimates range from 10% to 2% of Ukrainian casualties.

This is due to the manner in which Russia has fought the war, minor presence ceding authority to and providing support for local militia.

And of course, what with partial-mobilization, that’s all changing now. If Russia goes on the offensive, naturally it follows that its troops will be more at risk.

 

And we do as long as it serves our self interests. That is the nature of nations and human beings.