No Sign of a Red Wave; Plenty of Signs of a Dobbs Wave

No. Im intent on dropping the absolutes.
Disagree without Taliban comparisons.
Disagree without assuming you know how people grieve a miscarriage.

I'm not saying they are the same. I am saying everyone has a different place where the view "forcing" birth as OK.

 

An important point that is often glossed over. Babies don't grow in the mother like a seed. They are grown by the mother.

The reason zygotes aren't viable is because the mother hasn't made them into babies yet. Whether or not she will should be her choice. End of story.

 

Ok. Im not being obtuse. I mean that genuanly. I see a lot of arbitrary lines drawn.

So someone needs to tell me when viability is. Not arbitrarily. Not an estimate. Give me the date and time of viability.

We cant. Our estimation of It has changed over time.

And it is arbitrary because some people view heartbeat. Some people support it late term. (We have a poster on this board who proudly proclaims his support of abortion right up to delivery.) Some use conception.. and sonit goes.

You chose viability and many others agree, but that is arbitrary by definition.

 

It's a terrible take.
He calls the life side the Taliban because of a single personal anecdote that matters to him, but then has the audacity to say that women (and potential fathers as well according to the article I posted) don't view miscarriage as a child death. Thus completely ignoring anyone elses personal anecdote.

This is why we rail against the radical left. They have zero room for any 9ther thought.

Taliban!
Bigot!
Intolerant!

All words used to bully people into silence and conformation from the ones screaming for tolerance.

 

Many grieve miscarriages like a loss of a child. My wife and I certainly did. We struggled to conceive and then lost our child. She had a name. We had a life planned out together. Thank you so much for your insensitive garbage. Please tell me again how we should have to feel. Oh I know.. it’s personal to you and just a game to us terrorist types.
Donkey.
One side in this thread has thrown firebomb after firebomb. Insult after insult. Bad comparison after bad comparison. There is no good faith debate. It’s just seeing how insulting and ugly you can be. I’m done. Truly done.
It’s not my religion
It’s not because I want to control some random woman’s body. It’s not because I’m a man.
It is because I consider the baby’s life as special and worth saving. But because some of you disagree you insult, degrade, and dehumanize the other side. Congrats. You are all winners.
When any of you can discuss this without the freaking garbage, the ugliness, the insults I’ll be glad to talk with the few of you that can do that.
Good night.

 

You consider a fetus to be a "baby" because of your religion.

 

Here is your problem: you are arguing against a strawman that you label "the radical left" (which is a label used to bully people into silence, it should be noted, and is really no different than yelling "Bigot!" or "Intolerant!"). l_boy and I have often argued over issues of race and gender. I have taken the more "left" position than him on both of those issues on this board. So am I the radical leftist? I am almost certainly to the left of him on many issues. And yet, I haven't yelled anything on here. So is that what the "radical left" is like? Or is that just a useful tool to ignore arguments that make you mad while labeling an out-group?

 

Sorry for your loss, truly I am as I've known others with similar stories. I can't imagine the pain.

I have strong opinions on the right to life subject both before and after birth, but I am not here to debate the subject.
However, I would note that there is plenty of hyperbole on both sides. In fact, I'd say the right has dominated the hate speech for many years by calling abortion supporters vile murderers and much worse. It is only now that women's rights have been taken away that abortion supporters have awakened to what it means for their families and friends and are meeting the ugliness head on, perhaps with ugliness of their own. When you look at the vindictive laws passed in Texas and a few other red states it is almost impossible to have a civil conversation with those that support such laws.

 

No, it's not arbitrary. I'm sure you actually know what arbitrary means and are just trying to muddy the debate. The earliest premature birth to ever survive is at 21 weeks. So we have a very good idea of when viability occurs. I do not favor allowing abortions after 20 weeks unless there are complications that require it. I am actually OK with Florida's 15 week abortion ban. You are not. So maybe you should take it up with your boy Ron whom you are so smitten with.

 

If so you would think you would here of the mass tragedy of a half million lives of children lost….every year.

 

You are arguing that because there isn't a magic second in which viability occurs (the reality is, like almost everything, it is a curve with uncertainty and an average length of time at an individual level), that it doesn't exist. Here is a really simple solution: if you get to the point past which no baby has ever lived, then the fetus isn't viable. Currently, that is 21 weeks and 1 day.

But, if a woman chooses to induce and give the child up at that stage, she also doesn't have to pay for the care for the newly born child and it is instead the state that gets to pay for it. Since the state decided that this was a person and that person has no income and is in need of very expensive medical care.

And at that point, the balance of rights fundamentally changes, as the woman's body does not need to be treated as property of the state in which she doesn't have control in order to recognize the rights of a person not even recognized by the state.

 

I am sorry that I even have to bring this up. As I have said, the experience is different for everybody. It is an emotional subject so most people won’t broach it because it is uncomfortable. But the stakes are high … we have people that want to force women to give birth.

Think of it this way…what if after your experience you had to go to the police station to undergo an investigation of the circumstances. That may seem hyoerbolic but it is really a totally logical extension of we are saying in all circumstance the death of a fetus is the same of child and may require an investigation for murder or manslaughter.

 

Sorry for your loss, but earlier in this thread you were saying if the man didn't want to be a father, and the woman refused to get an abortion, he should allowed to walk away from the mother and the baby with no financial obligation.

 

I’ll just say that it’s apparently easy for you to make comments anonymously that I guarantee you wouldn’t make to a grieving couple.

 

So now I’m a radical left? I wonder what all the other lefties on here think about that when I’m arguing with them about half the time.

Forced Birth. That is what it is. No amount of butthurt whining and crying about it is going to change that.

You are pro forced birth, Taliban style. Own it.

 

So I’m supposed to be quiet and not offend while others freely discuss their right to force our family to give birth?

 

Nobody equates amiscarriage to the death of a child.
Those are your words. Patently false and something you wouldn’t say to someone face to face.

 

Ok you are going to do a Tilly and literally go after the word “nobody” instead of focusing on the main point, (almost) nobody equates a miscarriage to death of a child. That doesn’t mean it isn’t tragic for people involved. But it isn’t the same thing.

 

Again you won’t say that to anyone who’s experienced it so why post it?

 

I agree with that. The man is given zero options. No choices. If the women wants the baby she can have it and care for it.
I also said earlier in this thread that I believe there should be two parents that raise a baby and care for the child. As my wife and I had planned to do.