No Sign of a Red Wave; Plenty of Signs of a Dobbs Wave

Y’all keep claiming that pro life necessarily means “christian beliefs”. But that just isn’t the case. It’s not my “Christian’s beliefs” that make me pro life. Ya my belief that a baby is a living breathing life with a heartbeat inside the mothers womb. A life. Just a valuable as mine and yours. The idea that if it isn’t able to live on its own then it’s not viable as a precious life is ridiculous. No babies could survive on their own AFTER being born. Are y’all good just culling newborns to make it easier for the mother?
Christian beliefs have nothing to do with pro life. It’s just an easy way for the some to categorize the others sides argument so they can be called extremist, compared to terrorist, and have “religion” carry the brunt of the attack. No one is calling it the moral right… as in the moral duty to protect the most helpless, innocent amongst us.

 

Okay, they literally don't breathe. First breath happens after birth.

So when are we making them eligible for all the things humans are eligible for after birth? If a woman is pregnant, can you lock her up because she committed a crime? After all, in order to do so, you need to lock up a person, just as valuable as she is, who did not commit a crime.

But they can survive with any person taking care of them. They can survive in another state or country. Prior to viability, they can't survive except in that exact spot. That is massively different.

The history of this debate goes back to Greek philosophy and was carried forward by religious scholars. Most religions did not take hard positions in favor of life beginning at conception until very recently. The debate primarily revolves around when a soul is imparted on a person. Most people wanting bans on abortion to conceptions can't craft an argument aside from something like a soul, because the other markers of human life (some degree of autonomy or consciousness) don't apply then.

 

I don’t recall the personal story, but I’m guessing it was a kind if Tim Tebow scenario, and you feel that has empowered you to make health care decisions that affect my family. Should we dial you into the next Obgyn appointment since you really seem to think your beliefs are the authority in such scenarios?

Don’t act all butt hurt and offended. Don’t be a snowflake. You need to understand how your *beliefs* affect other people. Unlike Jesus who generally was not one calling for the government to legislate their moral beliefs, you think the Government should be based on the Bible (your interpretation that is, because the Bible is generally silent on the issue).

You could have just turned away from the thread, acknowledged the difference and moved on, but you wanted to attack the issue head on. Enough with all the “ it’s offensive” crap. You sound like a whiny triggered liberal.

Taliban. Taliban. Taliban. It’s a word. Own it. If you support 10th century theocracy be honest about it.

 

As I’ve shown it is primarily a religious belief. A vast majority. Sure there are always exceptions. Some are probably based on tribal affiliations (agreeing with whatever their party believes). Some may have misinterpreted the poll. There are always a small percentage of voters who answer questions counter intuitively.

.

No it doesn’t breathe. Almost all animals have a heartbeat. A circulatory system is not a unique marker of advanced life. We step on bugs every day that have heartbeats.

Early fetuses don’t have any sort of cognition or feeling or pain. These are the markers where you they approach humanity.

yeah that’s bullshit. Like I said before miscarriages are common. 500,000 to a million a year. Nobody equates a miscarriage to the death of a child. Imagine if we had 500,000 babies inexplicably dying every year? There would be mass hysteria.

Taking abortion pills is an induced miscarriage.

To say that religion has nothing to do with it is just willfully ignoring reality. A vast majority of pro lifers are religious. A vast majority of atheists are pro choice. Most or maybe all other similar developed 1st world countries are not as religious and are not as adamantly pro life in nearly all circumstances.

 

This proves that your view is a morality based view. Either they are all precious souls worthy of protecting or they are not. The notion that irresponsible behavior needs to be punished with a live birth is mind boggling.

Also you have your own convenient criteria of what you all and what will won’t but they don’t line up with the legislation. Also, practically it doesn’t matter. If you ban 95%+, then abortion clinics shut down, and if you threaten health care professionals with jail or lawsuit, they aren’t going to touch the exceptions. The only thing they may act on is if the mother is literally dying.

 

These people need to stop calling themselves pro life when in reality they are pro birth

 

Don’t kid yourself. They are trying. They are passing laws that make it illegal to go out of state, and passing laws that allow them to sue out of state. Of course, that is blatantly unconstitutional, but do you trust this Supreme Court to acknowledge this?

 

Pro Forced Birth.

 

The abortion issue is going to cause a lot of Republicans to lose elections they otherwise would have won.

 

Yeah but you are pro forced birth too because you don't believe a healthy woman with a healthy fetus should be allowed to have an abortion at 8 months.

 

I think so. I hope so. I’ve almost always voted Democrat for the past 20 years but this year between abortion and the Trump infatuation I’m going to vote for every D on the ballot, even the damn dog catcher. And I’ll be doing this when I am the most dissatisfied with the Democratic Party in the 20 years I’ve voted for them.

For the record if we were talking about 15 week bans I would not be as animate about it. I’d prefer viability as a cutoff, it is the most logical, but I can understand there is a point developmentally where a fetus has enough characteristics of a “person” such that it is murkier. If much of Europe has 13-15 weeks, with liberal exceptions, that seems reasonable to me too.

It may be that overturning Roe V Wade will make us better, in that we will be forced to come to a workable compromise. For years republicans and Christian could sit behind the supreme Ct and call for abortion bans with no consequences. Now it is consequential to them. They have lost some of their rights, which they clearly use regardless of their *beliefs* and everybody else including moderates (like me) is so pissed off that it torpedos their efforts at political power on anything else.

It may very well be that the Republican Party is more comfortable being the minority party of grievance such that they can say whatever they want and have no accountability for what they say or do.

 

What about 5 months? Is that forced?
3 months with a healthy heartbeat?

Where is the line?

My guess is wherever you arbitrarily place it.

 

Viability is a logical place. At that point, you have an independent life that might be able to survive if born. Prior to that, you have only the potentiality of life.

 

I want so bad to ignore like I keep promising but holy crap you just keep spouting insensitive nonsense.
Miscarriage and loss

People have funerals for miscarriages man.

People grieve and morn, give names etc.

What on earth kind of bubble do you live in?

A miscarriage can very much be equal to losing a born child to some women.

Lets also ignore that causing a miscarriage while commiting a crime can lead to a murder charge in some places too. Why? Because that parents CHILD has been stolen from them.

 

Something like 10% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Obviously they aren’t all named or mourned.

The women that hold funerals and name their fetuses I’m guessing aren’t doing that in the 1st trimester. Billy Donovan’s wife miscarried 1 week before her due date. That is a categorically different experience from a woman who miscarried earlier in her pregnancy, who may not have even known she was pregnant. You seem to be intent on pretending it’s all the same, whereas clearly there is an entire spectrum across the 40 weeks.

 

Technically, that wasn't even a miscarriage. That was a stillbirth (which is everything after 20 weeks). Miscarriage only occurs before 20 weeks. We have different words for different stages for a reason. They are very different experiences.

 

I didn’t say people don’t feel loss with a miscarriage. My purpose was not to minimize any particular woman’s experience. But clearly, on average, people don’t view miscarriage as anywhere in the same plane as the loss of a child. The reason that is applicable is as a society we do not revere the life of an early fetus compared to a baby, and that is fairly logical. We can show the fetus is not viable, has no cognitive ability, has no feeling so the science of equating an early fetus to a person is very weak. Then it comes to social values and what “life” we choose to protect. We do not universally protect all life. Executions. Wars. And not all innocent life: collateral damage re military attacks. Also there lives we could save and make better, including children, but we choose not to. There is no such thing as “right to life”. We choose what lives are worth saving. Given that most people do not value the life of a fetus anywhere near anyone post birth.

How many of these 500k miscarriages have funerals?

You keep coming back with the exception - the pro forced birth atheist, the miscarriage funeral. Finding exceptions doesn’t negate the main point.

As to using murder / manslaughter laws as justification for forced birth laws, I don’t think one necessarily has to do with the other. I’m not prepared to defend or criticize such laws, but their merit or lack of them have nothing to do with forced birth laws.

 

Likewise it makes sense to consider a crime committed against a pregnant woman at that phase a “double homicide” instead of just the woman - as it should be OBVIOUS to the perpetrator.

But people with views such as Tilly’s shows why such “personhood” laws can be a slippery slope, esp when used against the women themselves, but even more generally I can see issues with it.

 

The line is viability. It's not arbitrary and you know it. And that's pretty much how we've been doing it for a long time now, until the SC blew it all up.

 

You’re wrong here. Badly.