No Sign of a Red Wave; Plenty of Signs of a Dobbs Wave

Keep an eye on those Gen Xers who are pissed off at Biden for passing that loan forgiveness bill. For every one that gets their loan forgiven, there are 5 who didn't (those who didn't go to college, those who went into the military, those who felt college was a waste of money, to those that paid off their loans). Many are going to use their vote to make sure democrats don't win and you can pretty much say goodbye to Biden if these young adults actually wake up. So far we haven't seen a fire under Gen X and even some of the older Gen Z when it comes to voting. But money talks, and many are pissed off at this bill. Far more who don't benefit from this bill than those who did - 5 to 1.

 

Thanks for the post.

First off, I did not, and would never call Tilly a religious zealot or anything of the sort. While there are times I don't agree with his positions, I do believe he is fair and states his positions with reasonable arguments that don't devolve into petty name calling. If that's the way you took my original post, I apologize. It certainly wasn't intended to be a slight on him. And yes, you're correct - I lurk often but don't post often as I'm usually drawn into long protracted discussions which I mostly don't have time to finish. Yesterday was an exception and I posted more than I usually do.

I too, welcome reasonable discussion and am open to listening with anyone with reason. I don't follow anyone's 'path' except for my own. I look forward to future discussions.

 

Dole was extremely anti-immigration and was particularly vile on the subject, in many ways he was a frontrunner to where the GOP was going on the issue. When it was clear he was losing to Clinton, he basically pulled out all the stops and became (even more of) a huge dick to try to gain some traction.

 

This seems like wishcasting to me. Also, how many of those Gen Xers have kids living with them (or not) that will have loans forgiven? They might thank Joe for getting their 30 year old out of the house!

 

I think this thread is about the impact of Dobbs ruling on voting patterns and not to litigate abortion morality for thread #6,561 on Too Hot. Just a thought.

 

And until men equally face the potential complications that can arise from being pregnant, don't expect things to be equal. From the start of pregnancy, it's not. Why should the law be any different.

Forcing any woman to carry to term against her wishes is cruel. Before Roe, it lead to all large city hospitals to have full septic wards that dealt with women suffering from botched abortion attempts. And in C. American countries, the rate of female teenage suicide is higher than anywhere else in the world because girls can't get an abortion, even after rape.

 

Barbaric? Have you ever seen an abortion?

Take the stance you choose. I respect different views, and even understand some of the pushback to my own abortion stance... but ripping a tiny human body apart and vacuuming it out is pretty barbaric in its own right.

But again your taliban reference is just hyperbolic nonsense. Its like people who try to compare American politicians to Hitler.

People living under the rule of the actual iron fisted Taliban wish they could live under your American definition of it.

 

I have prefaced over and over and over again early term abortion bans, from (or near ) conception. Almost all of those are via abortion pill which effectively causes a miscarriage. I’ve read that 15-20 percent of pregnancies end in miscarriages. They are very common and natural. For the most part I’m not talking about later term abortions that you are referring to.

I think abortions much after the first trimester are more debatable. Personally I’d prefer to keep the viability standard, but between 15 weeks and viability is not as clear. Most of Europe has something around 15 weeks.

IMO forcing women to bring early term abortions to term is barbaric and fits with Taliban style way of life. Again, believe what you want, but insistence on imposing this value of yours on me and my family, with potentially severe consequences for us, is where I draw the line. You have gone from freedom of religion to sharia law- forcing your religious views on others via the law.

 

Extremist do stupid things. But those who are pro life based on their faith and vote accordingly are not the Taliban.

If he means the extremely rare cases decades ago he should say that. He wasnt saying that though.

 

So you believe in "forced" birth too.
You just draw a different line in the sand of when to "force" them.

Noted.

 

And most of us on the pro life side agree with you and want such exceptions to be made.

 

Of course there is a line. Getting that line exactly right is difficult. But we should do the best we can based on the information we have and political consensus. Saying that we don’t know what the line is so we have to default to conception is rigid and lazy thinking along the lines of the Taliban.

 

But that’s not what many of the people you vote for propose. Don’t know if you are correct on “most”, but the people who want the least exceptions or no exceptions are the most vocal with Taliban like views hold the most weight in the R party.

 

"Most" seems like a stretch to me, much like "anti-Trump" conservatives, the people you describe are an ineffectual political minority with no constituency or power and aren't a relevant factor in the debate

 

Exactly reasonable people like tilly are being used by extremists to pass draconian laws. I am a supporter of the tenth amendment. In a perfect world I would like states to determine this but the state legislatures are full of people who want to make some birth control illegal who imagine that there is a way to save the baby in an ectopic pregnancy, who think the proper place for a woman is barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen making her master his dinner. It’s wrong your reasonable support is being used by unreasonable people to make horrible laws.

 

If anybody has paid any attention they know that I don’t line up 100% with core values of Democrats. I’m honestly not exactly sure where Tilly stands on early term abortion. Chances are if he and I were co-kings we could come up with a reasonable compromise that we both would be content with and the majority of Americans would support. I still think Tilly suffers a mild delusion of where most of his former party compatriots are. People like him are in a very small minority

 

93% of abortions happen first trimester already. The #1 reason an abortion is 2nd trimester or later is monetary reasons. A law appealing the Hyde Amendment that prevents public funds for abortion, and limits abortions to between 15 and 20 weeks to me seems to be reasonable compromise. As long as there are abortions allowed after 15 weeks for health concerns for the woman.

This mirrors the law in most Euro countries. And if there were public funds available for abortions before 15 weeks, and after, only for maternal health concerns, this law would likely cover 99% of abortions in the US today.

 

The supreme court wrote some of the best legislation ever in a 100 or so word decision they came up with first trimester no restrictions second trimester reasonable restrictions 3rd trimester able to make big restrictions.

 

There’s nothing faith-based about opposing an abortion, but being pro choice is Biblical. It’s Biblical because we’re taught our bodies are holy, and the government shouldn’t intervene in that holiness. It’s biblical because we’re given free choice to make our own decisions that affect us, and it’s biblical because the abortion procedure is in the Bible Numbers 5:19-22.

There are few things that irritate me more than holier than thou Christians hiding behind their faith to justify the subjugation of other human beings. They’ve done it with people of other races, religions, genders, sexual preference, and now reproductive choice. Christian conservatives and the Taliban are exactly the same.