migrants, migrants, migrants. the more things change, the more they stay the same

Title 42 isn't gone. That's part of what is causing the increase in apprehensions. Of course, Biden can't attempt to fix the problem because Trump's lackeys in the judiciary in Texas refuse to let Biden change Trump's border policies.

 

That's not what "open borders" means. There's no need to make intellectually dishonest arguments. If that's how you're defining "open borders," we've had "open borders" for our entire history as a country.

 

What if the outside of the gate was patrolled by its own cattle apprehension police force(s) and a vast network of cattle detention camps and legal apparatuses to put the cattle back in the pen.

 

Why do you have to insult people when making your points?

Strictly speaking, you are correct. An “open” border would be one with free flow going back-and-forth. What we have is a very poorly secured border that is extremely porous. Many people do flow across it, mostly in one direction, unchecked.

Focusing on the narrow, legalistic definition of “open” neglects the real problem: an unsecure border with hordes of people flooding across, some of whom are apprehended and some who get by untouched.

 

And what of the cattle that are never apprehended and rendezvous with the escape goat?

 

" . . . . we're getting terrorists and criminals from several rogue nations."

Trump propaganda isn't complete without reference to "sh**hole countries".

 

The flow isn't one direction, however. From 2009 to 2014, more immigrants were returning to Mexico than coming into the country. If the flow was truly only one-way, then we would have seen a consistent rise in the undocumented population every year. But that simply has not been the case. The undocumented population has stayed around 10 million to 11 million over the past 15 years.

The flow is also based a lot on economics. When the economy is good in the US, immigrants tend to come. Last time there was a recession, many returned home. There is a reverse connection with the immigrant home country's economic conditions as well. Mexico had its best economy ever 2012 - 2020, which is why more Mexicans returned home, and less came. However, during this time, several C. American countries were struggling, which is why we saw an influx of these immigrants during this time period.

All this suggests the best way to slow the flow of immigrants is fix the economies in their home countries. Easier said that done. The flow of immigrants here in the US also suggest we need these immigrant's labor. Before the pandemic, and now, we have been at record low unemployment, even with these undocumented immigrants here in the country. And there have been recent labor shortages after Trump reduced the number of legal immigrants allowed, and the pandemic dropped the number of undocumented immigrants coming in. Immigration was/is not a cure-all for our labor issues, but it can help.

The best way to deal with the situation isn't to try and stop everyone from coming. It's to make the flow of immigrants more orderly, better tracked, and allow those coming to work to do so legally. And after some time here, give them a choice of staying and becoming a citizen, or letting them return back home.

 

Excellent discussion. Far better than the knee-jerk "Build the wall!", "Stop the caravan!" and "Open borders!" nonsense from the right.

 

I never said they didn’t. It’s not the ethnicity of the migrants that is the problem. And I never said it was… you are the second poster to jump to racism. It’s the sheer numbers. Share with all those that think it’s fine for the boarder to be flooded. Let them share in the issues and problems that this illegal immigration brings. Seems they don’t like it as much.
NY and DC aren’t complaining that they have too many Mexicans… just that they have too many illegals flooding their system.
So why are some you trying to make this a racists issue. It’s a numbers issue. Too many flooding an area of limited supply. Spread them out to the big cities. Spread it out to those that think sanctuary cities are the way to go. Clearly they are welcoming more illegal immigrants in that city. Shouldn’t be any whining and crying… right.

 

Well, for one, somebody applying for asylum isn't "illegal" as they have the legal right to be here. So if it isn't a racist issue, why are you declaring people here legally "illegals?"

 

I didn't insult you. I said your analogy was intellectually dishonest, because it also wouldn't qualify as open borders. Our border isn't even "poorly secured." It's a relatively well secured border, considering the size of it. But it is impossible to completely secure such a massive border, at least with the technology and laws we have.

If we want to discuss the "real problem," it's that the people most upset over the border tend to understand the problem poorly and advocate for the wrong solutions. If you want to make sure your house isn't robbed, you'll take actions to deter people. These actions may include putting up a fence, buying a dog, locking your doors, and installing an alarm. But if I am intent on robbing your house, and only your house (because of some personal grudge), none of these deterrents are going to stop me.

We have migrants who are intent on entering America. They're going to adapt to whatever we throw at them. The irony is that we need many of them for our labor force and to continue growing as a country. One solution is to create a system for them to come legally, thereby encouraging them to follow the lawful process.

Additionally, we need to target the things in their home countries that make them want to leave. Without targeting external drivers of migration, we're not going to slow down the flow. Does enhanced border security (via technology, manpower, and strategic barriers) play a role? Yes, to a degree. But it's not what will solve this problem.

 

I thought AZcat just posted that the majority are coming here for economic reasons. That’s why the flow wasnt one direction a decade ago. If they are truly looking for asylum why are they going back?
And anyone that crosses the boarder illegally, without going through the proper channels is here illegally. Thise that go through the right channels aren’t.
Now how many are crossing illegally each day. How many… getaways … people who cross and never once go through the proper process… people here illegally.
Again the only ones so far that have claimed anything about how many Mexicans live somewhere are the liberals. The rest of us are focusing on NUMBERS that are crossing illegally.

 

Entering the US and requesting asylum is a legal way to enter the US. Immigrants know this, which is why they are doing this. The flow has been neutral for a while because Mexico had a solid economy, and many Mexicans were returning home, and not many were coming. Who were coming were C. Americans, who were escaping poverty and violence, and had a reason to ask for asylum in the US.

Many immigrants aren't truly looking for asylum. They just want a legal way to come here. The majority of asylums are rejected. But if there was another way for the immigrants to come here legally, say through a guest worker program, they would do this instead.

 

Well for one, you are mixing a variety of migrations. The number of Mexicans immigrating fell off a while back because of NAFTA, which does suggest that it was economic. The migration occuring now is generally of Central Americans. This is occuring due to a variety of factors, one of which is economic and another is running from the latest battleground in our never ending and never successful traveling war on drugs.

Second, walking into the country at a non-border crossing and then claiming asylum is a legal way to enter the country.

And you aren't focused on the numbers because, as I pointed out, the cities you listed generally have large groups of immigrants. You are focusing on your emotions, not the numbers.

 

It's the ethnicity. Try and be a little honest about it.

 

Limited supply of what exactly? I would assume the people worried those claiming asylum would skip out on their court dates and disappear wouldnt want to disperse them all over the country. None of your position makes much sense TBH.

 

Walking into the country and claiming asylum is not breaking the law.

 

Ah yes, our famously race neutral border and immigration policy which had something called "Operation Wetback"