Kansas overwhelmingly votes to protect Abortion access for women

Rhetorical question: Is it really possible to have a rational discussion on the subject of abortion with individuals who have an absolutist theological belief that an embryo from the moment of conception is a human being?

A reasonable compromise which according to surveys is supported by a majority of American voters would be access to early first trimester abortions with no restriction by the state (using the term to refer to both state governments and government in general) while recognizing that a fetus based on development is entitled to protection beginning later in the first trimester or in the second trimester with abortions being permitted only for medical necessity i.e. a threat to the life or health of the mother and/or serious fetal abnormalities with the likelihood that the fetus would die in utero or could not survive after birth. Additionally, physicians who perform abortions based on medical necessity should have qualified immunity with the burden on the state to prove that there was no medical necessity. A doctor should not implicitly be required to wait until a patient is literally on death's door before performing an abortion to protect herself/himself from prosecution.

 

With some you can have a civil conversation and others less so, but in most cases there isn’t going to be any room for compromise as they think they are doing Gods work and we are talking about murder in their mind.

However your proposal of only allowing abortions “early in the first trimester” isn’t going to have many fans - what is that, 6 to 8 weeks? I could see more potential between 13-15 weeks, which is more in line with the European model and can mostly be supported with abortion pill.

 

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "early". In most European countries the cutoff is 12 weeks after which medical necessity (my term) kicks in. Even that criteria would still be far more liberal than the near absolute prohibitions already in effect or likely to be enacted in a number of states including a majority of Southern states.

 

I think it would be kind of similar to sitting down and having a discussion with someone who thinks rape is wrong 100% of the time. The circumstances, the age, the development, the type of person, the type of clothing they are wearing, their behavior, the lack of self-control human beings are capable of, etc don't matter. There are no loopholes that make rape OK. When someone is unwilling to compromise their convictions on rape we don't consider that to be a bad thing. Having a spine and a backbone to hold the line regarding the moral convictions we uphold as people created in God's image is a good thing. In most other circumstances you would consider that resilience despite criticism to be a good character trait.

 

Ah the old “conservatives don’t care” bit. Lazy, but not shocking.

 

Who said anything about all conservatives.

 

I would agree that the social conservatives have run roughshod over what is a VERY personal and stressful/conflicting (hopefully) situation. Keep it simple and you get converts.

Just keep in mind that, once a fetus is viable outside the womb, it is no longer the "right" of the mother to terminate the pregnancy, it is the government who protects people from wanton disregard for life. Not that she has to raise the child, but rather it is no longer her prerogative. She and the performing medical person would be committing murder.

It may be reasonable to presume a 22-week viability period, but if science is allowed to do what it is capable of doing, the maximum weeks to decide will get increasingly less. It may even get to the point of viability before the woman even knows she is pregnant.

But that is in the future. We just don't know how far in the future.

 

I would only add to your point in that, rights are given by God and not what is popular. We have bastardized the concept and it is a shame.

I would hope we can all agree that, once the fetus reaches a point to where the mother's womb is no longer necessary for viability, the right belongs to God and not whatever wind is blowing in the mind of the mother. If we want to live in a civil society, we can not make up rules just because they seem popular. Do that and it eventually goes away. It is a form of moral hazard.

 

About time Republican politicians Start experiencing some accountability for their zealotry.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/06/indiana-abortion-law/

Indiana’s new sweeping ban on abortion produced immediate political and economic fallout Saturday, as some of the state’s biggest employers objected to the restrictions, Democratic leaders strategized ways to amend or repeal the law, and abortion rights activists made plans to arrange alternative locations for women seeking procedures.




After the legislation was signed into law, Eli Lilly, the pharmaceutical giant and one of the state’s largest employers, warned that such laws would hurt its employee recruiting efforts and said the company would look elsewhere for its expansion plans.

Salesforce, the tech giant with 2,300 employees in Indiana, had previously offered to relocate employees in states with abortion restrictions

Eli Lilly, Cummins Speak Out Against Indiana’s Ban on Most Abortions

Large Indiana employers Eli Lilly and Cummins speak out about the state's new restrictive abortion law

Cummins, an engine manufacturing company that also employs about 10,000 people in Indiana, spoke out over the weekend against the new law as well.

"The right to make decisions regarding reproductive health ensures that women have the same opportunity as others to participate fully in our workforce and that our workforce is diverse," a company spokesman said in a statement.

"There are provisions in the law that conflict with this, impact our people, impede our ability to attract and retain top talent and influence our decisions as we continue to grow our footprint with a focus on selecting welcoming and inclusive environments," the Cummins spokesman said.

 

I do not agree that the right belongs to God. I also believe that if a woman finds out in her 25th week, for example, that the child will never walk or talk and will never develop brain capacity beyond that of a newborn, it should be the woman’s choice. Same thing with a pregnant 10-year old who doesn’t tell anyone that she is pregnant until the 25th week. I trust women and their family and other advisers to make the right decision.

 

States that ban abortion are going to lose a lot of business - and republican-held legislature seats.

 

It won’t help states, but it will hurt them more in smaller states with less clout. While there were some grumblings in TX I don’t know that it has changed any employers behavior other than offering to protect employees from lawsuits.

The balance for republicans between business and the Republican base could be more strained. You have religious right pursuing to wipe out employees individual freedoms (unless of course you need a break to sacrifice a goat for God during work hours) and many populists who don’t like big business period and want to tell them what they can and can’t do because of the war on woke-ism.

 

Put the issue on the ballot in every state and let the voters decide

 

I think it's going to hurt Texas a lot in the long run. If Florida doesn't ban abortion it can get business that otherwise would have gone to Texas. If you're a corporate leader and are looking to relocate or establish a new office in a different state, are you going to pick a state where abortion is banned? The backlash against states that ban abortion is just getting started. Good luck recruiting young talent in a state where abortion is banned. It will be a major factor.

 

I tend to agree that you will see larger effects on more marginal states. If you have a good infrastructure of businesses set up, it protects you somewhat. But I also suspect that you will see less large businesses being willing to move there in the future than would have been willing to do it. Obviously, resource extraction and supporting companies will still be there, but I can see tech companies, especially those with more female employee bases being iffy about heading to the Austin, Dallas, and Houston areas, which have recruited them well in recent years.

I'm also interested what happens to elite universities in some of these states. Places like SMU, Rice, UT Austin, Texas A&M, etc. have been crucial to the company recruiting efforts there. But undergrads are almost 60% women at this point. If those places take a hit on their student quality, you could see some real spillover into the industry side as well.

 

It will take a lot more to get companies to FL vs TX. I tend to think the number 1 or 2 issue is ability to attract employees and talent. For that you need:

- An already established pool of talent
- Sufficient infrastructure and schools that employees will be happy

Texas has some momentum between energy, financial and now tech. Florida has never struck me as being particularly business friendly other than taxes from that respect.

But you are right, little by little, it hurts the perception and if corporate leaders have wives and daughters and employees with wives and daughters it will become a factor.

 

How about YOUR son, who is 3 months old and is a royal pain in the ass? At least to her and her mental outlook? Gotta put some skin in the game if you want to play. YOU went there, not me.

 

I don’t care if he is 3-months old or 1 day old. He is a human being, plus I am going to love him regardless of any deformities. That’s not the same as giving a woman the right to make her own decision about whether to give birth to a deformed fetus and devote the rest of her life to that child or to have an abortion and later on have a healthy child.

 

I don’t think most companies are going to simply pack up and leave these states, they wouldn’t do that to their employees. They will either do the Eli Lilly model in Indiana where they basically said any future growth will be outside the state, or if they are open to bids to move, discount the more restrictive states for abortion.
The college applications thing is interesting, but UT and A&M in particular draw heavily within the state. They will be OK. The more interesting cases will be places like Alabama - 50 percent or more of their incoming classes are out of state, many from the more liberal east coast. Will be interesting to see how they are impacted.