War in Ukraine

Yep

 

I agree what is the goal? What is the end game?

As for $33 billion (on top of what has already been given) and Ukraine's economic issues why should that be our problem? We can't afford the generations of debt we have already accrued. My guess another $33 Billion will be on the table next quarter.

Ukraine has been given ample time and opportunities to straighten out their government on multiple occasions and each time the government has failed to serve the people. Oligarchs and government rule while the rest of the planet takes advantage of the secrecy and kleptocracy. I say let the IMF deal with it as they have done before. But then again the IMF knows a bad deal when it sees one. My guess if Ukraine is to survive this war they return to the same antics as they have in the past. In my assessment the only way to change the Ukrainian government is to occupy Ukraine. That is something the world much less NATO is unwilling to do.

As for bleeding Russia we bleed ourselves as well as the rest of the world continues to do business with Russia and their allies. I will also note Russia was in Afghanistan for 10 years (1979-1989) and we are fooling ourselves to believe Russia doesn't have the resolve or the financial capability to stay in Ukraine for as long as it takes.

Speaking of China there is nothing that will drive a wedge between the two. If such a wedge existed it would have been employed already. We sanction Russia but not their allies. We take Russian assets but their allies. Now we can say clearer heads are prevailing for not targeting Russian allies which raises your question again of what is the goal?

 

I agree there is no reason to bury more American boys. As for monetary and arms support for Ukraine my answer is stay out of it. We have generations of debt on the books now and I wonder what our progeny think when all of this is said and done. Will they look back on their ancestors and say they were wise to do this or will they find themselves entrenched in the same morass that currently exists?

 

It is a fight for Western values, well worth it

 

This is a bit reductionist, don’t you think?

The Soviet Union didn’t experience crippling sanctions affecting relied upon supply lines and income streams during its Afghan war. In just over two months Russia has lost almost twice the number of soldiers the Soviet Union lost during the entirety of the decade long Afghan war. Ukraine is being supported by an unprecedented host of first world nations. The two wars are fundamentally different in style too. It was much more of a decentralized resistance than we’re seeing in Ukraine.

 

I think if our progenythink anything it will be a people in need needed help and we helped them.

 

And the soviet Union disintegrated after the afghan war.

 

Your silliness in this thread is making me wonder if you are being serious or if you are just being contrarian.

 

Agreed on sanctions yet Russia remains in the Ukraine and leverages their assets against Poland and Bulgaria. Who do you think will blink first?

Second no one knows how many Russians have been killed in the war much less the total military force or armaments Russia has. What you get are estimates if that from pundits as well as propaganda from both sides. Not too long ago people were claimed Russia had expended have of their arsenal. Another point of view concerning mass graves what are people to do with the dead and who actually put them there? For the most part Russia has been content to bomb from a distance which continues to this day and has now moved on Kyev. To assume the Russians are burying bodies in mass graves while the war continues to progress seems a bit of a stretch to me. But then again as I stated earlier no one knows.

The EU warns natural-gas companies not to pay Russia in rubles after the country cut supplies to Poland and Bulgaria

Four European natural-gas buyers have already paid Russia in rubles, Bloomberg reported Wednesday, citing a person close to Gazprom. Bloomberg did not specify which four European buyers paid for supplies in the Russian currency.
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Four European gas buyers have paid Russia in rubles for supplies, bucking the EU's urging in the energy face-off

This development emerged as Russia halted gas supplies to Poland and Bulgaria on Wednesday, spurring a 28% surge in European gas prices. Russia's Gazprom said the reason for the stoppage is that both countries didn't pay for supplies in rubles, an order President Vladimir Putin put forth last month.

The report didn't mention which four European buyers have made ruble payments. But Austria, which gets 80% of its gas from Russia, said Wednesday that deliveries are continuing unrestricted, according to Reuters.​

 

I am serious and I don't see Ukraine worth the price we all pay. War is a dirty business and to think otherwise without a clear assesment and a clear goal history bears out the results.

 

It’s my view this is our one of our primary objectives - maybe 1B.

 

I take it you would have stayed out of Hitler's business too....smdh that you are ok sitting onbthe sidelines and allowing widespread torture and genocide sanctioned by a foreign actor

 

Our ancestors were wrong to let the ovens burn across Europe then and we would be wrong to allow them to burn now

 

Read everything I have posted responded to in this thread from @icequeen_ and you'll have your answer.

 

Are ovens burning? If they are that is certainly news to me.

 

Just how valuable is Russian oil versus sanctions?

Uniper to pay for Russian gas via Russia account- paper

Uniper (UN01.DE) will transfer payments for Russian gas to a Russian bank and no longer to a Europe-based bank, the German power utility told newspaper Rheinische Post on Thursday.

"The plan is to make our payments in euros to an account in Russia," the daily paper cited a Uniper spokesperson as saying.

Even though Russia has demanded rouble payments for its gas, the payments system it has proposed foresees the use of accounts at Gazprombank, which would convert payments made in euros or dollars into roubles.

This offers wiggle room some countries could try to use to keep buying Russian gas against Western currencies.
​

Who is Uniper? None other than a distribution company that Germany gets their oil from.

Germany is our biggest market and our home. We generate, trade, store, and sell bulk energy here
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Given the novel solution (which everyone agrees does not violate the sanctions) look for more European countries to follow suit as some already have. Germany has made clear in this move that they cannot do without Russian oil or depend on western alliances to supply it. There are many other articles on the web that report about this with Rueters being the primary lead on this development. From an economic standpoint the analysis is if Germany does not get the oil they will go into a deep recession. More over those that follow the oil industry indicate there has not been any reduction in Russian oil exports.

What is unique about this situation is Gazprombank will act as the intermediary and accepts all forms of currency which bypasses the requirement that oil be traded in US dollars.

Fury in Brussels: Germany caves in to Russia’s rouble demands

Germany has announced plans to phase out Russian oil imports by the end of the year, a measure currently being weighed up by the EU for its upcoming sixth package of sanctions.

However, it has not made any commitments to reduce Russian gas supplies, with country reliant on Gazprom for over half its gas supplies, with the EU dependent on around Russia for around 40 per cent of its natural gas.

It recently triggered the early phase of emergency supply measures, which could lead to the country’s government seizing control of the nation’s gas supplies. ​