Welcome home, fellow Gator.

The Gator Nation's oldest and most active insider community
Join today!

War in Ukraine

Discussion in 'Too Hot for Swamp Gas' started by PITBOSS, Jan 21, 2022.

  1. officelife

    officelife Senior

    213
    68
    1,808
    Aug 11, 2017
    This makes me feel better. For a second I thought it was the real life version of Rodney McKay.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  2. OklahomaGator

    OklahomaGator Jedi Administrator Moderator VIP Member

    122,091
    162,916
    116,973
    Apr 3, 2007
    I thought it was Jeff Bezos, he owns everything already. :):)
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  3. jeffbrig

    jeffbrig GC Hall of Fame

    1,454
    536
    1,978
    Aug 7, 2007
    I really wish stuff like this wasn't being made public. Why tell them how you did it? Doesn't this pretty much ensure the Russians will stop using unsecured phones? Why give them the heads up?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. jeffbrig

    jeffbrig GC Hall of Fame

    1,454
    536
    1,978
    Aug 7, 2007
    It's actually 7 :D
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  5. jeffbrig

    jeffbrig GC Hall of Fame

    1,454
    536
    1,978
    Aug 7, 2007
    Fake news!
     
  6. ursidman

    ursidman VIP Member

    13,707
    22,499
    3,348
    Sep 27, 2007
    Bug Tussle NC
    Hope this is a start of a trend
     
    • Like Like x 3
  7. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    8,536
    1,977
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    Look, you can own a Jeet Kun Do studio, have read every book on the subject, and even have been in a few tournaments … and that still doesn’t make you Bruce Lee. The main point he’s making, that the MiG-29 is not the top-line fighter in this war, is accurate. But he clearly doesn’t understand how they would be employed in a combined-arms fight and the problems they would present to the Russian air forces simply by being there.

    This reminds me of a period of instruction from early in my career. In 1999, fellow know-nothing lieutenants and I had to plan an air assault, and the instructor asked us, “Is the T55 a good tank?” We all scoffed that it hadn’t been a “good tank” for about 40 years. “Shit!” he said, “Do you have any? If there are three T55s at or near your LZ, is that going to be a problem for your light infantry platoon?” The point, of course, was about local superiority. Russia is already having great difficulty controlling the skies. These MiG-29s won’t magically sweep away the Russians, but they will cause them even more difficulties.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

    3,051
    939
    1,858
    Nov 24, 2021
    Buffalo NY
     
  9. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

    3,051
    939
    1,858
    Nov 24, 2021
    Buffalo NY
    So this is how Russia is justifying acting on equipment being sent...cnn live

    "Lavrov said Soviet and Russian-made missile defense systems, which are available to some NATO countries, cannot be legally transferred to third countries, according to TASS."

    LOL. He only cares because it's bigger stuff and they're losing. It's not like there's a deed transfer or something, or a title like a car.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. gogator7444

    gogator7444 GC Hall of Fame

    3,051
    939
    1,858
    Nov 24, 2021
    Buffalo NY
    Cnn live...conference has ended

    "Xi says China and US have a responsibility to ensure peace, according to Chinese state media

    From CNN’s Yong Xiong in Seoul, South Korea

    China and the US have a responsibility to ensure peace, Chinese President Xi Jinping told US President Joe Biden during a video call Friday, according to Chinese state media CCTV.

    “As permanent members of the UN Security Council and the world's two largest economies, we must not only lead the development of China-US relations down the correct path, but also shoulder our international responsibilities and make efforts for world peace and tranquillity,” Xi is reported to have said on the video call.

    “The world is neither peaceful nor tranquil,” Xi acknowledged. “The Ukraine crisis is something we don't want to see.”"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    8,536
    1,977
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    I’m so very glad to hear it. Now all we need for him to admit is that China has even less of a historic claim on Taiwan than Russia has on Ukraine.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,501
    2,734
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    I read that. It was well reported and well worth a read, but the battle in question was 2 weeks ago - not a new development
     
  13. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,501
    2,734
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    China actually has a very strong legal claim, given that almost all the world recognizes Taiwan as part of China. It makes that calculation very different
     
  14. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,501
    2,734
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    With respect to MIG 29 discussion, even outdated weapons, used correctly from a tactical perspective, can be very effective. I read an article this morning about some low tech Turkish drones that the Ukrainians have been using very effectively. These drones are apparently unable to survive in any air defense environment. But the Turks use them judiciously whenever they find a gap where the Russians don't have their air defense set up in advance of an attempted armor advance. It's been very effective.

    And even if they can't use them anymore because the Russians have figured it out, it causes the Russians to slow down their advances, which itself is a laudable success.

    The mere presence and availability of the MIG 29s will limit Russian operational flexibility
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  15. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    8,536
    1,977
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    That legal recognition was predicated on China never, not ever, using force to settle the claim. Our social contract is to let China pretend to be in charge and to pretend ourselves that we think China is in charge. That legal recognition and the pretense that goes along with it was given relatively easily, and can be taken away just as easily.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,501
    2,734
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    None of that refutes the point that they have a far stronger claim. It's just a far different situation. These type of situations are not easily reducible.

    Edited to add. The violation of the fifty-year self-determination agreement when Hong Kong was turned over was widely criticized, but didn't meet nearly the same international moral condemnation, and not simply because China is far more integrated. Again, these are not simple situations, reducible to easy soundbites.

    You're smart enough to know better
     
  17. reboundgtr

    reboundgtr VIP Member

    1,456
    364
    1,808
    Oct 14, 2017
    Jawja
  18. reboundgtr

    reboundgtr VIP Member

    1,456
    364
    1,808
    Oct 14, 2017
    Jawja
    I think this is common knowledge to the Russian military. They are revealing their operational and logistical shortcomings daily. What modern military doesn’t use unencrypted comm? I think the Russian AF are also out of laser and other smart munitions. They obviously missed Ukrainian C4I centers along with HQs. If they win they’ll just crush them with mass using substandard equipment in typical old school USSR style doctrine.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. uftaipan

    uftaipan GC Hall of Fame

    8,536
    1,977
    1,483
    May 31, 2007
    Fresno, CA
    Well, what I originally wrote was historic claim, and I don’t think that’s really in dispute. There’s no question that in the history of Russia, Ukraine was a part of Russia, one way or another, much longer than it wasn’t.* In the history of China (a much, much longer history), Taiwan was under Chinese imperial control for only a relatively short period. And the People’s Republic of China, specifically, has never exercised sovereignty over Taiwan.

    * And for the record, I still say the self-determination of the Ukrainian people trumps Russia’s historic claims.
     
  20. tampagtr

    tampagtr VIP Member

    17,501
    2,734
    1,618
    Apr 3, 2007
    Fair enough.
    But unless we're engaging in theoretical historical exercises, which God forbid Vladimir Putin is overdoing these days, the significance of history is its impact on international legal claims and the potential world response to aggression. Regardless of history, the fact that Formosa is recognized as part of China will have a big impact on the way the world views it. This is not the 9Dash line.

    And as a practical matter, from a military standpoint, there is absolutely no way the US can safely project power in the Taiwan Strait. Then again, it seems that even in 2022, water borders are still highly significant. We may not be able to defend our fleet from ballistic attacks in the Taiwan Strait, but China would still have to actually invade across a body of water. That still remains highly underrated, a fact that our increases in technology have not yet rendered obsolete
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022