Coronavirus in the United States - news and thoughts

that’s a very ambiguous statement. Yes vaccinated do sometimes spread the virus. Do the spread it “like the unvaccinated”? Well yes, if they spread it, they spread it the same way, by proximity to others.

So yes they spread it “like the unvaccinated”.

Do they spread it to the same degree and frequency as the unvaccinated? No.

 

Actually technically much of what he says is technically true in that post but he uses it in context to concepts that are false.

 

You’re splitting hairs. He’s intentionally disingenuous. Incredibly selfish, shitty behavior.

 

Thanks, but I'm sticking with my story.

 

He’s really quite clever at it. He rarely directly addresses the issue or responds directly to what is said, instead making general statements that are true or kinda true in support of notions that are false.

Yes the vaccinated can spread it and do spread it, and when they do the mechanics of how they spread it is the same. They don’t spread to the same degree and frequency but they do spread it.

I know nothing about Gilbralter but I’m guessing they have an uptick. “Surge” is a relative qualifier. The nursing home thing did happen. What it practically means is debatable but it did happen.

I definitely want to believe that. I do believe that. Because it is true.

medically this isn’t really true and is a misunderstanding of how vaccines, or more specifically the body’s immune system works.

I think this is generally true. “Robust” and “Strong” are relative terms. The relevance is questionable.

Is true that they haven’t, at least at some level. There are logical reasons they haven’t because it isn’t easy and hard to define, but they haven’t.

This is a vague bullshit throw away opinion that doesn’t mean anything.

half truth followed by hyperbolic opinion.

another throw away vague and meaningless opinion

 

Nice post, but I can't get on board w this. For the moment, I'm going to cease awarding their fallacious behavior with more attention.

 

Of course not. Morally wrong to FORCE people to be vaccinated without providing the same exemptions and opt outs that other vaccination requirements have permitted.

I respectfully disagree with the comparisons. For one thing, we don't put forth much of an effort to prohibit drinking and driving or requiring seatbelt usage. If we were serious about drunk driving, every car would have a breathalyzer check in order to start it, but the nuances of the comparison are vastly different to say the least. And people rarely if ever get pulled over for not wearing their seatbelt. By the way, you know what did help with seatbelt usage more than legal requirements? PSAs:

https://popicon.life/how-the-crash-test-dummies-revolutionized-seat-belt-safety/

Central law justified slavery at one point in time. The law is an attempt to apply society's view of morality in a practical fashion. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right; just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong. The idea is to shape law to match the morality in a practical fashion. That's why it's important to get the morality right before leaning on "what's legal." And it's ok to have disagreements along the way!

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

I respectfully disagree. The data comparisons between California and FLORIDA, for example, are shallow and misleading. It doesn't take much effort to dig a little deeper. But why have thousands of individuals doing it when the central source for providing the existing information already exists? How many people have parroted California's deaths per capita as compared to FLORIDA without digging a little deeper? When we talk about spreading misinformation, this is it. It's worth the investment to clean this stuff up.

No sir, I'm not asking for additional measurements. I'm asking for a more effective implementation of sharing the measurements that have already been collected (or should have already been collected). This falls on administrators, not on healthcare workers. Picture a bunch of kids having taken a bunch of tests, but nobody compiles and analyzes the results other than at the most superficial levels. That's what all of our healthcare databases look like.

I didn't see a link above, but I did find this: COVID-19 Podcasts and Webinars

There's a bunch of 'em in there. Do you recommend any in particular that may help me think differently about what I am asking for (or may otherwise help to answer the "why" that what I'm asking for doesn't exist)?

We've seen delta pass through many young children in our neighborhood. Nothing worse than minor cold symptoms. These kids are extremely active outdoors. Certainly anecdotal feedback, but it does cover a few families. Some of these children have been exposed for extended periods of time but consistently test negative (some people may have a natural resistance to the virus, but I'm not sure if that's been officially proven or not). I understand why some parents might be more concerned than other parents, but hopefully folks can understand why some parents already feel their children are safe.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

T memory cell activation = 3-5 days
Measles, polio, etc incubation periods > 10 days.

Memory T Cells win. No infection.



T memory cell activation = 3-5 days
Covid Delta Variant incubation = 4 days.

Sometimes Memory T Cells win No infection. Sometimes Covid Delta variant wins. Infection.

Even then memory T Cells win vs hospitalization approx 90% of time.

Lesson Over.

 

Pretty sure the student is looking at some other alt-right website and missed it.

 

Maybe they haven’t touted the robustness and powerfulness of natural immunity because they don’t want to encourage people to get infected. Sure we could’ve gone the herd immunity route, but that would’ve left a projected 3 million dead. Was it the CDC that chose not to track natural immunity as you state? I remember it a little different, it was the President at the onset of the pandemic that discouraged testing and contact tracing. Not the CDC. Tests weren’t even available without appointments and long waits for results until maybe 6 months into this thing. Then they improved, depending on what state you lived in. I know there was a point in Ga where you had to schedule an appointment for a test 2 weeks out then wait another week for results. Really discouraged testing since you’d either be fine or in the hospital, or dead by the time you got your results back.

 

No. You are just reading with your bias and creating what you want to believe. You are making assumptions that are just not there.

 

All of your arguments about morality come down to what you think is immoral. Well, absent a moral standard, it isn’t morality it is just an opinion. I think it is immoral to refuse a vaccine that significantly reduces the spread of an infectious disease that is particularly dangerous to the vulnerable because one thinks they are healthy enough to tolerate the disease. But who cares what I think. Just like you, i am not the arbiter of morality. Society is. And, the societal balance of imbedded in the right to privacy versus public health interest, which you literally ignored. Sorry, this is exactly like drunk driving, which is criminal. Which is why we make it illegal. And do checkpoints. Maybe you bury someone? Maybe not? But you don’t know until it happens. We know some do, don’t dint, injure others. Like spreading a disease. But, we can reduce that risk. Which is where society steps in and balances the need of the many against the desires of the one. Nothing immoral about that and we do it all the time. Speeding laws, school zones, lights in the street, driving in the left lane... we can go on. All moral. And the slavery example is not anywhere near comparable. Slavery was always immoral. So was counting people at fewer than 1 or not allowing women to vote. Which is why we changed the law. The benefit of slavery was to the slavery owner who received free labor. It was literally stealing someone’s life. Society has no interest in that at all.

 

Sure, I would think relative health of countries would play some role. How significant a role is a different matter. However, it's the sheer number of cases and deaths in the US that stands us apart. This is less of factors related to overall health such as obesity rates and isn't going to be the immediate focus of a public health response to a pandemic outbreak of infectious disease. People need to be treated for the disease itself while development of vaccinations becomes the primary response for protecting the entire herd so to speak.

 

Kind of funny that anyone would think the Center for Disease Control and Prevention would tout natural immunity as the best option…

 

California, where the obesity rate is in the bottom half for the country? How about the places with no lockdown like Mississippi, Louisiana or West Virginia? Those states had minimal or no lockdowns and are still the fattest in the country. Your correlation between obesity in lockdown is ridiculous.

 

I don’t necessarily disagree that this could be the case. But like with drugs. It will be situational. Just like some one treatment works for one person and not another or both or neither. This disease works in a similar way with spread based on what we are seeing. And when you see 87 out of 89 at a facility fully vaccinated (when delta was surging in Florida a close friend had a friend whose 85 year old mom was in a rehab facility with a breakout and had similar numbers to the Connecticut one just not as many/16 of 18 fully vaccinated and the 85 year old mom was one of the two leaving not vaccinated and went asymptomatic) get Covid. It shows that the fully vaccinated are spreading this like the unvaccinated. When you see a spike that right now looks exactly like the spike from before the vaccine in a place with 100% vaccination (hopefully the vaccine and previous natural immunity will have this surge stop soon and it will not cases will not hit the same level) it shows the vaccinated spread this like the unvaccinated.

 

To not even study and look into the issue is arguably criminal in my book. What are we paying these morons to do?

To use the excuse that we should not look into an issue like this because they might be afraid someone would go get infected makes no sense. Just like we are an obese country we don’t tell people to go eat more and exercise less. We tell them to eat better and exercise more. Knowing natural immunity works is known science. And the fact they have ignored it for the most part is malpractice at the highest level. We know it works. And if we found out it works extremely well (appears to) you don’t tell people to go get the virus. You tell them to continue and avoid the virus just like you tell people to eat good and exercise. Will everyone listen? Obesity we know they won’t all the time. For this the vast majority will not choose to get sick but there are probably a few who will. It happened early on in the pandemic.

The cdc is basically worthless now sadly.

 

That's the whole point. You and others who agree with the mandate don't have a monopoly on what society should do, nor do those who disagree with you. It's ok to have resistance to a vaccine mandate as we try to sort out what is the appropriate course of action. Some people flip out at those who push for mandates; while others flip out at those who oppose them. This is why I say it's ok to disagree.

What is needed are risk assessments that evaluate the possible paths of proceeding either way. How many more people will get vaccinated with a hard mandate? How many more will get vaccinated with only a soft mandate? How will that impact the spread of the disease? Are the increases worth the freedom? Are the jobs lost worth the lives saved? What about the individual's right to die? Are the freedoms an infringement on the rights of others? These are things that we are still working out.

I've never advocated for a "right to privacy" in any of this. In fact, it's the misguided and misinterpreted "right to privacy" that has screwed up our access to useful health information. You have my view all wrong on this.

No, refusing the vaccine will never rise to the level of being "criminal." If it does, it will be after an exhaustive battle which will have wasted many people's time and money. I'm not going to waste any more time arguing that these things are not "exactly" alike. We're worlds apart on that note if you genuinely believe that.

I would argue that this would be more like mandating charity (not just money, but time). Charity is a good thing; I believe a necessary thing...but it should always be voluntary, and we should encourage others to participate in a voluntary way. It's selfish for people to be against mandating charitable contributions!

You missed the point. You can't point to the law and say "this is the source of morality." Even when the laws are moral (which slavery clearly wasn't), people will distort and manipulate a law to support what they are looking for. You didn't disagree with the idea that something isn't moral just because it is legal, until or unless you do, I'll assume we're on the same page on that one. Laws are a source of order, not morality.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

 

You keep posting this garbage about the nursing home. Your conclusions are fallacious to say the least. To start, got continually take the isolated and draw conclusions not supported by larger data. Second, the nursing home is a risky environment because it is indoors and filled with people particularly vulnerable to infection even if vaccinated. Older, infirm, diminished immune systems. So you have the risk of higher viral load and transmission to the vulnerable. ITs example supports the need to vaccinate the community to reduce the risk of transmission into facilities like that from outsiders exposed to staff or patients. Overall society needs the greater protection afforded by the vaccines, particularly from those who really believe and act on the nonsense you and people like you repeat like a mantra. The disregard of the overall statistics is and the conclusions you reach are not the conclusions a research scientist would reach. Implying that (with statements like “the vaccinated are spreading this like the unvaccinated”) the vaccinated are spreading the virus at the same rate as the unvaccinated is jut a lie. The statistics have been repeatedly relayed to you.