TRUE STORY My Uncle ran into one of his buds stateside that was serving in the Corp at the time of the Chosin battle, his bud happened to be on the front lines. Per my Uncles friend, yeah the elements were a MAIN enemy. Anyway so the dude tells his story: I was in a trench with fellow Marines when we heard "BUGLES: blowing. Not one - hundreds, maybe thousands. Well when it became real obvious that 300-400 thousand Chinese were initiating a major attack the situation became - untenable. So my Uncle's friend said: Cliff, we heard them bugles and saw what appeared to be a "landslide" of Chinese infantry coming right at us. In short order the men were instructed to retreat and did so. My Uncles friend said when he got to the "next line of defense" is when he realized during his retreat he and a bunch of his fellow marines had never come out of their sleeping bags. When queried by my Uncle the dude said - Cliff, it was Bugles, A blue wave and snowing. We was so damn scared we wasn't gonna screw around with no zippers, we did the fastest "BUNNY HOP" to the rear in world history. ( I always found that a bit funny)
Both scary and some great humor. My late father-in-law had some funny stuff to say about his service in the Pacific against the Japanese. But that was a hell of a retreat. Getting out of there alive without being crushed was an amazing bit of leadership justifiable source of pride for the Marines
Since we are talking war - I proudly would like to share my family's greatest contribution to the military. My uncle was in the AAC (Army Air Corp) NO Airforce in those days. Was a full bird Colonel. He was a mission planner (and participant) in the shooting down of General Yamamoto's plane and group in the Pacific theater. Let me be clear: Uncle George did not "SHOOT DOWN" the General. That honor went to other pilots. But the raid consisted of 44 American aircraft. Not all of whom fired weapons - most did not. Anyway it was a very BIG DEAL to ANYONE involved. Rest in peace Uncle George.
Personal story from my Dad (USN Retired 1942-1977). I remember hearing how angry many of the military members were at the start of the Korean conflict. First to go were the reservists who had fought in WWII (and thought they wouldn't be called again). Second hand & a long time ago, so accuracy of statement is anecdotal (sp?). Proud son of a sailor. Side note: anyone growing up in central Florida remember the flights of B52s heading to McCoy AFP in the late 60s-early 70s?
That's just sad because the first year of that conflict was TERRIBLE for S Korea and the USA. Our boys got pushed WAY back before the counter-offensive began.
The Korean War was made ten times worse by our unwillingness to acknowledge that we were, in fact, at war with China, and bomb troop encampments in China near the border. We pretended that the troops suddenly became North Korean troops when they crossed the border from China. Basically, we were fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. We managed to repeat this mistake in Vietnam. When you fight, you fight to win. When another country sends hundreds of thousands of troops in to attack your troops, then they are declaring war on you, and the whole country deserves to be treated as an enemy combatant (at the very least, the region that is harboring the troops that are attacking). It is foolish to pretend otherwise. Just as we had no right to invade China (and we didn't), China had no right to invade North or South Korea without taking sides in the conflict and accepting the consequences that went with that. Bombing the Chinese troops near the border would have discouraged China from further involvement.
If I remember the history, Russia was backing communist china and providing T34s and Migs. Chiang Kai-shek, the leader of the Nationalist government, the first President of the Republic of China in the constitutional government in 1947. Then Mouse' Tongue took over. Instead of rebuilding/occupation of Japan right after the war, (1945) we should have diverted troops and $ to areas previously occupied by Japan (Manchuria, French Indochina, Korea, ect) and rebuilt those war-savaged countries and built military installations. That may have been the only way to control China. We should not have spent much effort rebuilding Japan, in my opinion. They reaped what they sowed. If we aided legit democratic governments and worked on removing the colonial governance in southeast Asian countries, a democratic Japan would not have been so important. The problem with Korea is we should have kicked China @$s, but WWIII would have started. The US against China and Russia. Germany, England, and France were pretty much spent by then. It's great to be an armchair historian, anyone have a time machine so I can talk to Truman?
This thread is starting to devolve The press paid little attention to this kerfuffle, but it was yet another sign that a tectonic shift is underway. In the South Atlantic, former U.S. security partners are building stronger ties with China, a shift that presents critical future risks for Washington and the inter-American community. China’s Growing Presence in the South Atlantic Over the past 20 years, China’s trade and investment with South America has surged, and it is now the region’s top trade partner. China’s Maritime Silk Road envisions a global network of Chinese-managed ports and sea routes flowing with Chinese cargo. Chinese companies have invested in ports and related services on South America’s Pacific Coast and in the Caribbean, and now it understandably seeks greater access to the region’s south-central breadbasket east of the Andes. A Chinese company operates Brazil’s second-largest container port in Paranaguá, and China plans to build a massive port to the north, in São Luis. In Uruguay, a Chinese fishing group aims to build a $200 million port in Montevideo capable of supporting 500 fishing vessels at a time. A New Great Game Finds the South Atlantic - War on the Rocks
A failure to complete significant rebuilding in Japan after WWII would have risked a repeat of what happened to Germany after WWI. Except the Japanese, when they decide to fight, are much more fanatical than the Germans. Can you imagine a pissed off Japan (with the next Tojo in charge) that managed to develop nuclear weapons? They had no history of democracy as we know it, and they had to be guided through the process as they humanized their emperor Hirohito.
Interesting perspective for sure. I doubt the Japanese would have had any inhibitions about using nukes. Tojo and the other militarists wanted war, plain and simple and were so deluded with their belief in "Cultural Superiority" that they probably felt they would be doing us a favor to use it against us. I will say as a unprofessional historian interested in WW2 the Japanese "Bushido" code was...............frightening to the highest degree. As an avid reader of history there are few, if any, examples of warriors being more committed than the Japanese. To the point of insanity. There are a couple of Asian Cultures I want on our side when the "Aliens" invade: The Japanese for their total willingness to "die" for the emperor. The Vietnamese. They just don't quit.
It's pretty obvious that China is a beast. Man power alone they are formidable. Their navy is growing fast. They have stolen our technology for years. They are are not going to do anything that is good for the world. I always find it interesting when the Dumb Green Deal people do not call out China. They are building dirty coal plants at record pace, while we are shutting down our plants that clean the coal. The CCP is our enemy, not the Chinese people. Love or hate Trump, he is the first person to take them on. China Joe will only empower them. China and the border are 2 things Trump hit hard. Unfortunately, people hated him too much to agree. These are the two biggest issues of all our lifetimes.
China is no longer a threat. I just saw Hong Kong destroyed. It's possible it was just a movie, but damn did Godzilla and Kong seem realistic
China is playing the long game. They were also paying attention during the cold war we had with the USSR. Are they ten feet tall? no. But we ignore and underestimate them at our peril. In the near term they may well make a move on Taiwan. Losing that would be a humiliation for the US, and yes that is a real possibility. We can lose a war to them without total nuclear annihilation or with the PLA marching through our streets (I highly doubt they have any ambitions of conquering us anyway, just replacing us as the pre eminent world power.) Historically they see themselves as the rightful masters of the world and the west as barbarians (that whole middle kingdom thing)
At least in any foreseeable near term, China does not seek total world domination against the United States. They seek to control the South China Sea up to the nine dash line and exercise hegemonic dominance in Asia. And it's not clear they're not already capable militarily of projecting that power in that limited area if they elect to risk the confrontation to do so. A2/AA
I beg to differ, at least economically regarding their ambitions on global dominance. Yes it starts in their own region, then it goes afield....Long term may be a different story but that can wait for the latter stages of the 21st century (unless their own flaws do them in in the meantime)
I was speaking militarily. Economically, obviously they will have the challenge all mature economies do when they get to that stage. They will have a lot of consumer demand which they have suppressed, citizens wanting a higher standard of living that is hard to provide when you emphasize low value added exports. Just about every mature economy has gone through that phrase, with mixed results. We're still going through it.
Interesting quote Tj. Particularly appreciate: The CCP is our enemy, not the Chinese people. Love or hate Trump, he is the first person to take them on. China and the border are 2 things Trump hit hard. Unfortunately, people hated him too much to agree. These are the two biggest issues of all our lifetimes.[/QUOTE] Sadly and regrettably these are certainly two HUGE issues. Lets face it, the U.S. and China must find a way to "deal" with each other and their respective politics. Or not, ............the alternative could be war. Not a particularly good solution anymore in the age of so much firepower. While I am a trump critic, the U.S. Southern Boarder / Immigration is a GIGANTIC issue to address. My concern is if the world is hit hard by lack of food production, (disease), political turmoil or what have you that the border crises will expand 10X. Invariably "HARD" choices will have to be made. Regrettable Trump didn't handle the situation a very humanely or diplomatically but like you, I fear much worse is to come. South and Central America political leadership, traditionally, is a f'in disgrace. distinguished primarily with the worst traditions of graft, corruption and civilian exploitation. Crime prevention, planned population demographics,and the means of production have been largely circumvented or ignored by the greed of those in power. This greed and corruption will result in a hell of a bitter harvest for our Latin American neighbors. Canada and the USA will ultimately need to "guard" it's borders to prevent the greatest migration in human history. This problem IS NOT going away. Look at it this way: Things are SO BAD down there ALREADY that parents are releasing their CHILDREN, with little more than a backpack and a few dollars to basically ESCAPE by hoping on a train, ALONE USUALLY, to ride up to a completely UNKNOWN future. The journey is replete with sexual predators, pimps, drug runners, liars, thieves, - basically the worst dreck in a human society. Sending children ALONE into that. Don't know about ya'll but things don't get much worse than that does it? JUST really PISSES me off that those Central and South American Gov't s turn their back on the situation and allow children, by the tens of thousands, to go into a hellish reality like that. THEY should be held accountable too, not just U.S. politicians.
I'm reading an interesting book about the origins of the Chinese animosity towards the west (the Boxer rebellion, etc.). The problem was based on a trade imbalance and two addictions: tea and opium. The British and Americans were addicted to tea in the late 1700's, and China was the main provider of this tea. However, China said that there is nothing they want from the British, other than silver. Eventually, Britain started to run out of silver, and they cranked up the taxes on the tea that was being sent to its American colony, which caused its own set of problems. So the British found something that the Chinese might like (opium) and started smuggling it from India into China with its East India Company (as the British recognized that opium trade was too immoral for the crown to be associated with officially). Ironically, both China and the British viewed each other as barbarians because of the other's strange dress and customs. The British were forced to remain near the docks outside Canton (modern day Guangzhou) and be managed by a hong merchant selected by the Chinese Barbarian Management Bureau. They could not enter the city or anywhere else in China. It was a serious crime to teach a foreign devil the Chinese language, so that was another barrier. The hong merchants were some of the wealthiest individuals in the world, managing the opium distribution network, and exchanging money for goods at the docks. Speed boats (with 60 oarsmen) would row out at night to transfer the opium from the British ships and give silver in exchange. Then the empty ships would come in to the dock to buy tea. Chinese officials were bribed as needed to keep the system going smoothly. By 1850, a staggering 15-20% of Britain's GDP was based on opium sales to China. China's mistake was in doing business with a foreign country without knowing anything about that country. Britain's warships were very advanced compared to China's, and had China started buying warships with the silver and developing their own navy, they would have been able to defend themselves when the Europeans attacked, instead of leaving their coastal cities defenseless. There is no question that what the British did (importing opium) was wrong, of course. And attacking the coastal cities to open up more markets was wrong as well. But from China's perspective, it was preventable. But they were too inward-looking to see the problem or the solution. The U.S. started getting involved with the opium-for-tea trade in the 1830's with Turkish opium, launching the careers of some very influential people. One of the first drug smugglers was Warren Delano, grandfather of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Another one was Francis Forbes, great grandfather of John Forbes Kerry. Some of these men started regional railroads with the money they made from opium sales. They never mentioned that they were smuggling opium into China--they kept themselves respectable as traders in Chinese goods like tea and silk.
Japan was eventually dragged into the opium for tea trade (which also expanded into silk and other products) because an island was needed off the coast of China to refuel ships with coal. The U.S. set its sights on Chichi Jima next to Iwo Jima. Commodore Matthew Perry humiliated Japan with a show of force with massive warships, threatening war with Japan unless they signed a treaty of "Amity and Commerce" similar to what the U.S. forced on China. Japan had no navy at the time. Japan learned from this incident and immediately started building their own military industrial complex. They also started sending people to America to understand their new overlord (or enemy, as the case may be). Ironically, future presidents got it into their heads that Chinese barbarians needed to be civilized with Christianity and American "values". Teddy Roosevelt was foolish enough--and fascinated with the Japanese military and culture (although he had never seen the Pacific Ocean, much less Japan)--that he ordained Japan as the country to protect Asia from Russia and teach American values to China (WTF?). TR violated a treaty with Korea and gave Korea to Japan in 1905 after Japan defeated Russia in the largest naval battle in history up to that time. This set a chain of events in motion that eventually led to the Pacific theater of World War II. All because of tea.
